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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (July-August) » Archive through July 21, 2007 » Pronunciation of Plural form -acha « Previous Next »

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 192
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 03:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is the final "a" in words like clárseacha pronounced as "ee" in most Irish dialects, or is this a pronunciation peculiar to Cois Fhairrige? Thanks!

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 127
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 07:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No, the a would be a dull 'ah' sound called a schwa. It might be an old dative singular form, like 'clársigh', used instead of the old nominative, but someone who knows better will fill you in

Bi-labial inside ®

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1726
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Coincidentally, I was about to start a thread about something like this. How come I've heard "ceisteanna" and "fuinneoga" pronounced as "ceisteannaí" and "fuinneogaí"? Is it dialectal, or has it something to do with case?

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 130
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Your examples I'd say are down to modern Irish promiscuity with plural endings and/or using aí generally as an ending. We could be seeing old dative pls with aí, plural aí, and dat sing as ach -->igh all been collapsed to one form as they are now just singular or plural forms

Bi-labial inside ®

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1764
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 12:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is dialectal. In Connemara and Ulster, -(e)anna is -(e)annaí and -(e)acha is sometimes -(e)achaí. I don’t think it’s an old dative, it’s just a double plural mark: -anna + -aí.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 09:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

^ Aontaím, it's not ALWAYS the case.. Another common example i hear is seachtainí..

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1728
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 10:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But "seachtainí" is the plural of "seachtaine". . . ?

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1765
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aontaím, it's not ALWAYS the case.. Another common example i hear is seachtainí..

Sorry but I don't see the connection between this and what we said...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Cathal
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Username: Cathal

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 08:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yeah, it's dialectal, just a different way of pronouncing the plural forms. Technically, yes is should be pronounces "-acha" or "-anna", but it is quite common to hear "-achaí" or "-annaí".

Níor Theanga Oifigiúil í Seo!!!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 931
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 09:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

-annaí and -achaí have arisen from plural datives, as -annaibh and -achaibh were pronunced like annaí and achaí all along in Connacht and Ulster.

seachtainí is just a plural of seachtain. It is not related to the issue above.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1772
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 09:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

-annaí and -achaí have arisen from plural datives, as -annaibh and -achaibh were pronunced like annaí and achaí all along in Connacht and Ulster.

Could you tell us what are your sources about that?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 932
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Rahilly and the article called "On the history of noun declension in Irish" which published in one Russian Celtology journal. If you are interested and can read in Russian - I will find precise bibliography for you. The article entertains history of all "strong" plural forms.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 933
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seo dhuit:

The book:
Академия Наук СССР
Институт языкознания

Кельты и кельтские языки

Из: Наука, Москва 1974


The article:
А. А. Королёв - Некоторые вопросы истории ирландского именного склонения - pages 84-94

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1774
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 12:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks. I only know Basic Russian, not enough to read the article.

However, the dative plural ending is pronounced [əβ´] in Ulster, or sometimes [u].

N. Williams wrote this in Stair na Gaeilge (p.451, §3.5):

"Ní dócha go bhfuil mórán baint ag an bhfoirceann -(a)ibh féin le -(a)í sa chuid is mó den tír, áfach."

Cé aige atá an ceart?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 934
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 04:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Rahilly had other opinion. This is what he says on page 78:

"In northern Irish -ibh has three pronunciations -i, -iv and -ú. In most of Connacht (including the northern parts of Galway) -ibh is pronounced -í, just as -igh is [...] The same pronunciation of -ibh was probably known in Ulster also. The strong tendency which exists throughout Northern Irish to affix -í to the plurals of nouns (e.g. daoiní, piantaí, putógaí, cailleachaí, ceisteannaí) is due, not only to the existence of the frequent plural termination -í (<-adha) but also, very probably, in part to pronouncing the -ibh of the old dative plural as í". The there is a footnote - "Tadhg Ó Neachtain frequently writes the termination -ibh (which he doubtless pronounced -í) in the nom. and acc. pl.)

To support Rahilly's point and refute statement in Stair na Gaelainne - I would remind that although -igh is pronounced as [ig`] as a rule in Munster, there many standard situations where it is not pronounced at all, e.g. in family names (Ó Dála(igh), Ó Luinsi(gh)), in words where there is no alternation [g`]:[-] - is dó(igh) liom, easpa(igh), iomarca(igh), Trá(igh) Lí, Ma(igh) Eo, Fionn Trá(igh).

Thus, it is quite probable that -ibh when existed in Ulster it was treated quite differently from any -ibh where -bh is a part of the stem.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!



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