Author |
Message |
Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Member Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
Post Number: 192 Registered: 09-2006
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 03:25 am: |
|
Is the final "a" in words like clárseacha pronounced as "ee" in most Irish dialects, or is this a pronunciation peculiar to Cois Fhairrige? Thanks! |
|
Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 127 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 07:59 am: |
|
No, the a would be a dull 'ah' sound called a schwa. It might be an old dative singular form, like 'clársigh', used instead of the old nominative, but someone who knows better will fill you in Bi-labial inside ®
|
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 1726 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:18 am: |
|
Coincidentally, I was about to start a thread about something like this. How come I've heard "ceisteanna" and "fuinneoga" pronounced as "ceisteannaí" and "fuinneogaí"? Is it dialectal, or has it something to do with case? -- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú -- Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.
|
|
Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 130 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 09:39 am: |
|
Your examples I'd say are down to modern Irish promiscuity with plural endings and/or using aí generally as an ending. We could be seeing old dative pls with aí, plural aí, and dat sing as ach -->igh all been collapsed to one form as they are now just singular or plural forms Bi-labial inside ®
|
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1764 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 12:15 pm: |
|
It is dialectal. In Connemara and Ulster, -(e)anna is -(e)annaí and -(e)acha is sometimes -(e)achaí. I don’t think it’s an old dative, it’s just a double plural mark: -anna + -aí. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm
|
|
Domhnall
Member Username: Domhnall
Post Number: 1189 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 09:07 am: |
|
^ Aontaím, it's not ALWAYS the case.. Another common example i hear is seachtainí.. A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river
|
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 1728 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 10:01 am: |
|
But "seachtainí" is the plural of "seachtaine". . . ? -- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú -- Muna mbíonn téarma Gaoluinne agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.
|
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1765 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:26 pm: |
|
Aontaím, it's not ALWAYS the case.. Another common example i hear is seachtainí.. Sorry but I don't see the connection between this and what we said... Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm
|
|
Cathal
Member Username: Cathal
Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 08:57 am: |
|
Yeah, it's dialectal, just a different way of pronouncing the plural forms. Technically, yes is should be pronounces "-acha" or "-anna", but it is quite common to hear "-achaí" or "-annaí". Níor Theanga Oifigiúil í Seo!!!
|
|
Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 931 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 09:06 am: |
|
-annaí and -achaí have arisen from plural datives, as -annaibh and -achaibh were pronunced like annaí and achaí all along in Connacht and Ulster. seachtainí is just a plural of seachtain. It is not related to the issue above. Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
|
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1772 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 09:43 am: |
|
-annaí and -achaí have arisen from plural datives, as -annaibh and -achaibh were pronunced like annaí and achaí all along in Connacht and Ulster. Could you tell us what are your sources about that? Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm
|
|
Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 932 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:21 am: |
|
Rahilly and the article called "On the history of noun declension in Irish" which published in one Russian Celtology journal. If you are interested and can read in Russian - I will find precise bibliography for you. The article entertains history of all "strong" plural forms. Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
|
|
Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 933 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 12:14 pm: |
|
Seo dhuit: The book: Академия Наук СССР Институт языкознания Кельты и кельтские языки Из: Наука, Москва 1974 The article: А. А. Королёв - Некоторые вопросы истории ирландского именного склонения - pages 84-94 Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
|
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1774 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 12:30 pm: |
|
Thanks. I only know Basic Russian, not enough to read the article. However, the dative plural ending is pronounced [əβ´] in Ulster, or sometimes [u]. N. Williams wrote this in Stair na Gaeilge (p.451, §3.5): "Ní dócha go bhfuil mórán baint ag an bhfoirceann -(a)ibh féin le -(a)í sa chuid is mó den tír, áfach." Cé aige atá an ceart? Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm
|
|
Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 934 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 04:15 pm: |
|
Rahilly had other opinion. This is what he says on page 78: "In northern Irish -ibh has three pronunciations -i, -iv and -ú. In most of Connacht (including the northern parts of Galway) -ibh is pronounced -í, just as -igh is [...] The same pronunciation of -ibh was probably known in Ulster also. The strong tendency which exists throughout Northern Irish to affix -í to the plurals of nouns (e.g. daoiní, piantaí, putógaí, cailleachaí, ceisteannaí) is due, not only to the existence of the frequent plural termination -í (<-adha) but also, very probably, in part to pronouncing the -ibh of the old dative plural as í". The there is a footnote - "Tadhg Ó Neachtain frequently writes the termination -ibh (which he doubtless pronounced -í) in the nom. and acc. pl.) To support Rahilly's point and refute statement in Stair na Gaelainne - I would remind that although -igh is pronounced as [ig`] as a rule in Munster, there many standard situations where it is not pronounced at all, e.g. in family names (Ó Dála(igh), Ó Luinsi(gh)), in words where there is no alternation [g`]:[-] - is dó(igh) liom, easpa(igh), iomarca(igh), Trá(igh) Lí, Ma(igh) Eo, Fionn Trá(igh). Thus, it is quite probable that -ibh when existed in Ulster it was treated quite differently from any -ibh where -bh is a part of the stem. Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!
|
|