I don't know how many times this has come up but it appears I've been given misinformation each time.

First of all, let's take two nouns that begin with S, one masculine and one feminine:

an siopa (masculine)
an tsráid (feminine)

All dialects agree on the nominative case and genitive case for both genders:

nominative: an siopa mór
genitive: an tsiopa mhóir

nominative: an tsráid fhada
genitive: na sráide fada

Furthermore, all dialects agree on the dative case when it comes to feminine nouns:

dative: ar an tsráid fhada

Only when it comes to masculine nouns in the dative is there a little bit of variety. Only in Southern Connacht do they say:

dative: ag an siopa

, whereas in every other place in the country they say:

dative: ag an tsiopa

That's the situation as far as I know.

A way to think about it is that t-prefixing has been generalised into eclipsis conditions

NO!!! In Munster you have:

ar an sráid fhada
ag an siopa mhór

because these prepositions cause eclipsis.

t- is prefixed to s- in dative only after prepositions (with article) which cause lenition of the following letter ("t" is a special case of lenited "s"), so only after:
sa, den, don

so we have:
sa tsráid fhada, den tsráid fhada, don tsráid fhada
sa tsiopa mhór, den tsiopa mhór, don tsiopa mhór

In Kerry Irish "den" and "don" can sometimes cause eclipsis and if so they don't prefix "t-" to "s-".

"t- is prefixed to s- in dative only after prepositions (with article) which cause lenition of the following letter ("t" is a special case of lenited "s"), so only after:
sa, den, don "

I'd imagine that this can be explained with reference to the history of the definite article

Of course, real eclipsis of s to zed/zee would assist...

Unregistered Guest, I've heard from other places that only Southern Connacht says "ag an siopa", and that EVERYWHERE says "ar an tsráid".

Can anyone offer a second opinion?

An reamhlitir T roimh S sa tuiseal tabharthach:

ag an tsiopa (in Ulster, Mayo)
ar an tsráid (in Ulster, Connacht, CO)
ag an siopa (in Connemara, Munster, CO)
ar an sráid (in Munster)

den tsráid (everywhere (?), except Dingle)
den sráid (in Dingle)
den tsiopa (in Ulster, Mayo, Munster, except Dingle)
den siopa (in Connemara, Dingle, CO)

sa tsráid (everywhere (?))
sa tsiopa (in Ulster, Mayo, Munster including Dingle)
sa siopa (in Connemara, CO)

Lars

(Message edited by lars on July 02, 2007)

Re "sa tsráid" - isn't it "sa sráid" in Conamara? they usually have urú after "sa". No?

quote:

Re "sa tsráid" - isn't it "sa sráid" in Conamara? they usually have urú after "sa". No?

There's usually urú after ar an, ag an, as an, faoin, leis an, etc., too.
But there's usually t-prefix before s in feminine nouns as it is in nominative.
ar an tsráid, ag an tsráid, as an tsráid and: sa tsráid.

The "simple" rule of Connemara and CO is: Nouns beginning with s and article don't change after prepositions:
feminine: an tsráid -> ag an tsráid, den tsráid, sa tsráid
masculine: an siopa -> ag an siopa, den siopa, sa siopa

Lars

(Message edited by lars on July 02, 2007)

quote:

an tsráid -> ag an tsráid

At least in this combination article 'an' is visible. However with 'sa' article 'an' is invisible, so this logic shouldn't hold. Anyway - I find Conamara's system of mutation confusing and illogical. You need 3 sets of rules for the same preposition...

quote:

The "simple" rule of Connemara and CO is: Nouns beginning with s and article don't change after prepositions:

Mo cheol thú, a Lars!

Thuig mé gurb iad sin na rudaí a deirtear, ach ní raibh míniú chomh snasta sin agam air.

quote:

At least in this combination article 'an' is visible. However with 'sa' article 'an' is invisible, so this logic shouldn't hold.

If visible* or not, there is an article and a preposition.
And BTW: How do you pronounce "ag an"?
I'd say [eg´ə] as written "aige". Do you see the article?

quote:

I find Conamara's system of mutation confusing and illogical.

Yes, I don't like it, too. Especially I don't like it to become Standard.
It's even illogical from an etymological view.
There's no etymoloical reason for a difference between masculine and feminine nouns. Dative of "an" once was "sindu" (masc.) and "sinda" (fem.), both caused lenition (and t-prefix: sindu/a > sint). Accusative case was "sindon" and "sindan", respectively. Both should cause eclipsis.

Lars

*(Etymologically it is the preposition which is not visible in the case of "sa" (< ins an < in sint < in sindu/a)

(Message edited by lars on July 02, 2007)