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Thomas Leigh (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 04:28 pm: |
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A chairde, Another question for the group! Coming to Irish from Scottish Gaelic and Manx, I am, of course, finding a great deal that is very similar; I find I already have a decent passive or "recognition" knowledge of the language (I'm surprised, sometimes, by how much Irish I do understand) but my challenge now is to develop that into an active ability to speak and write to people. Since I'm already familiar with other varieties of Gaelic, many of the things which cause problems for most students of the language -- such as the principles of the orthography, noun genders and cases, mutations -- are not an issue for me. However, the two big areas that are really giving me grief (apart from trying to work out Donegal pronunciations! ;-) are: 1.) relative clauses (direct or indirect, what particles and mutations to use, etc.) 2.) the copula, and where and when to use its many different forms. Both of these are areas where Scottish Gaelic and Manx have undergone considerable grammatical and syntactic simplification in comparison to Irish and I'm finding it a bit overwhelming. So I'm wondering if anyone could recommend a good grammar book (or any other resources) which deals with these two particular areas in detail. I'd be grateful for any advice or suggestions. Go raibh maith agaibh, Thomas |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 1696 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 05:11 pm: |
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You'll have to pick a dialect, because there's different grammar for each of them, e.g.: gurbh fhéidir leis Vs. go mb'fhéidir leis Then of course there's the Caighdeán which supposedly is the Irish language. -- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú -- Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.
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Peadar (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 05:31 pm: |
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You will only find grammar books for Standard Irish being published today, and they are not very thick! The main one is the New Irish Grammar by the Christian Brothers - this is just over 100 small pages long. Another book is Noel McGonigle's grammar - more clearly set out, but still a brief overview of the grammar of standard Irish. Out of print: well, as Munster Irish used to be the standard (more or less) before the war, you can find out of print grammar books giving quite a lot of dialectal information. But: if you are hoping to find a grammar book for Connaught or Ulster Irish... no such thing exists. Basically, you can start with the grammar books for standard irish and as you work your way through a textbook of Ulster Irish, note down the differences with the standard until you have a better and better picture. Relative clauses: the particle, atleast in the CO is "a". With direct relative clauses it lenites, with indirect it eclipses. This is complicated by the relative form of the verb that remains in Ulster Irish in the present and future: glanann becomes ghlanas. Direct relative: The woman who is cleaning the house: an bhean a ghlanas an teach Indirect relative: The woman whose son is in Ireland: an bhean a bhfuil a mac in Éirinn You can find lots of info in the archives here on the relative clauses and the copula. The copula is a huge subject I can't go into right now! |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 06:56 pm: |
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Noel McGonigle's "Irish Grammar Book" covers relative clauses adequately, and I see no differences between his descriptions and actual speech in Connemara. The other dialects I can't vouch for. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1740 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 07:13 pm: |
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About dialects, if you can read Irish, you can buy the 4 books "An Teanga Bheo", edited by Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann. There is one for Ulster, one for Connemara, one for Corca Dhuibhne and one for Cleare Island. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm
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Mac_léinn
Member Username: Mac_léinn
Post Number: 642 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 09:51 pm: |
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I don't know if this book ranks high in the minds of grammarians, but a recent publication is Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge by Nollaig Mac Congáil (ISBN 1-902420-48-9). There are sections on the copula and relative clauses. It might also be available in English but the version I have is in Irish, which occasionally uses examples in Irish with English translations to explain topics. (Message edited by mac_léinn on June 27, 2007) Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scoilbe.
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 5752 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 06:15 am: |
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Nollaig Mac Congáil | Noel McGonigle | An duine chéanna atá i gceist. The english version was written first; the irish version is slightly expanded. |
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 136 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 09:04 am: |
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quote:The english version was written first; the irish version is slightly expanded. There are three books. First there is "Irish Grammar, A Basic Handbook" by Noel McGonagle. This is really a very very basic booklet and not recommendable. And then there are two books: "Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge" in Irish (first pubished) and the later published English translation "Irish Grammar Book", both by Nollaig Mac Congáil. Both contain the same content. They are not really extensive but useful Standard Irish grammars. Lars (Message edited by lars on June 28, 2007) |
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Mac_léinn
Member Username: Mac_léinn
Post Number: 643 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 07:31 pm: |
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A Aonghuis, go raibh maith agat as an eolas. Ní chreid mé nach bhfaca mé é sin! . Is maith liom an leabhar sin mar atá téarmaí gramadaí aige. Mar sin, foghlaim i nGaeilge gan Béarla. (Message edited by mac_léinn on June 28, 2007) Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scoilbe.
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 59 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 10:20 am: |
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"This is really a very very basic booklet and not recommendable. " All Irish grammar books are 'not recommendable' as the Latin superstructure does not suit the language. A grammar of Greenlandic would be better... "Nollaig Mac Congáil Noel McGonigle" Used to be Mag Congail don't read this
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