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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through June 29, 2007 » Ulster Irish pronunciation help? « Previous Next »

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Thomas Leigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 08:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi, a chairde,

Is there anyone here who can help me with Ulster Irish pronunciation? The particular area I'm looking for help with is working out Ulster Irish pronunciation from the spelling. The only two learning materials I have found which use Ulster Irish specifically are "Now You're Talking", which has no information on pronunciation and spelling at all, and "Tús Maith", which has a small section on the subject but only focuses on the basic, easy stuff like vowel length and broad vs. slender consonants, but doesn't pay any attention to the actual important, tricky stuff.

In particular, I'm looking for help regarding the pronunciation of the short vowel + bh/mh/dh/gh combinations which turn into diphthongs, as I've noticed on the recordings that these often seem to be different in Ulster Irish than in the Conemara/Munster/Standard Irish I get in other learning materials; but what I really have no idea of is whether these differences are merely lexicalised, i.e. do I have to somehow try to learn the pronunciation of each word individually, or is it more general, e.g. does Ulster Irish always or usually have /o/ where Conemara and Munster Irish have /au/... and so on.

There are also a few individial words I wonder about (such as deartháir and deirfiúr) whose pronunciation in Conemara and Munster Irish differs significantly from the spelling, so I'm wondering if the standard spelling here in fact represents the Ulster Irish pronunciation, or whether the spelling is etymological or something and the Ulster pronunciation is something else again.

If there's anyone here who could help me with this, either on the forum or via private correspondence, I would be very grateful indeed. Just a bit of background on myself, as I haven't yet gotten the confirmation email to activate my account and create a profile, I'm coming to Irish having already studied Scottish Gaelic (my MA is in Gaelic Studies from the University of Aberdeen) and Manx, and I do read both IPA and X-SAMPA.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Thomas
Connecticut, USA

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 879
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 09:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Thomáis,

I can offer you to procure the book "An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Uladh" which will answer all your question.

Regarding your specific query - wait for Lughaidh to give an extensive answer, but as far as I know - there no [au] and [ai] type dipthongues in Ulster, like in Munster or Connacht.

abh, amh is pronounced [o:]*
agh, adh is pronounced [E:]*
ogh, odh, omh, obh [o:]
ugh, udh, ubh, umh [u:]
igh, igh, ibh, imh [i:]

eigh, eibh, eidh, eimh [E:]?

The last one I am not sure of.

*[E:] is epsylon letter in IPA, e.g. open [e] sound
*[o:] is a closed [o:], whereas "ó" is usually open sound (like English "law") in Ulster, bar adjacent to nasal consonants (n, m, mh)- where it is closed.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1737
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Latha math, a Thomais. Tha Gàidhlig Uladh agam.

deartháir [ˈdʲaɾahaɼ] or in Gweedore [ˈdʲaɾahaj]
deirfiúr [ˈdʲɛɼɪɸ´əɾ]

This time, the spelling represents quite well Ulster's pronunciation (this is quite rare!)

Normally abh(a), amh(a) are pronounced [oː] when they are stressed in polysyllable words. At the end of words they're pronounced [u] as in déanamh [ˈdʲanˠu].

agh(a), adh(a) are normally pronounced [eː] when they are stressed in polysyllable words, as in aghaidh [eːi]. There is one exception: adhmad (wood) is pronounced [aːmʷəd̪ˠ].
I think "fadhb" is pronounced [ɸʷɑjb] but maybe the word has been learnt from non-Ulster people (by hearing RnaG maybe). I'm not sure that [ɸʷɑjb] is the original Ulster pronunciation.

At the end of words -adh is pronounced [u] (ghéanfadh [janhu]= would do).
In monosyllables, -adh is pronounced [aw] as in "ar feadh" [ɛɼ ɸ´aw].

Unlike what Roman said, imh and ibh aren't pronounced [iː] in Ulster, but [ɪβ´].
The same way, eimh and eibh are [ɛβ´]

Tha mi an dòchas nach d'rinn mi dearmad air rud sam bith... Ma tha cèist agad, cuir orm i!

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Thomas Leigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 01:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Feasgar math a Lughaidh, is ceud mìle taing airson do chuideachaidh!

So are the combinations with "o" (obh, omh, odh, ogh) regularly [oː] in Ulster ? I'm thinking of words like "bodhar", "foghlaim", "domhan", "Domhnach", "rogha". Is it safe to pronounce [oː] when I see those graphemes?

Eidh and eigh (in words like "leigheas") -- is it safe to assume [eː] for those?

About amh -- is it just in certain words that it represents [oː] in Ulster? Two words I do remember hearing recently while listeing to the recordings with the courses are "samhradh" and "damhsa", which were quite clearly [ˈsawɾu] and [ˈdawsə], not [ˈsoːɾu] and [ˈdoːsə]. So I'm wondering if there are any rules or general guidelines there.

What is the pronunciation of final -bh/-mh preceded by a consonant, as in "leanbh", "marbh", "searbh"?

Finally, could I ask for the Ulster pronunciation of a few more specific words (which seem to vary a lot among the dialects...): taitin/taitníonn, fiafraigh/fiafríonn, cuimhne/cuimhin/cuimhnigh. Also the forms of the verb "gabh" -- it seems from what I've heard that the root/imperative is pronounced [go], but what about other forms such as "gabháil", "gabhaim", etc.?

Go raibh míle maith agat, a chara! Trugarez bras dit!

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Thomas Leigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 01:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Follow up to Román -- thanks for recommending that book. I'm going to see if I can get a hold of a copy. I'm actually planning a trip to Ireland in the fall, to go to the Oireachtas in Westport, so if I can't get it beforehand I'll plan on picking up a copy when I'm there.

But regardless, I do want to try to learn as much Irish as I can before I go!

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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 01:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Another question is about the MH in words like talmhaíocht and the word taobh.

What do we generally do with AOMH, AOBH?

thanks

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1738
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 02:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So are the combinations with "o" (obh, omh, odh, ogh) regularly [oː] in Ulster ? I'm thinking of words like "bodhar", "foghlaim", "domhan", "Domhnach", "rogha". Is it safe to pronounce [oː] when I see those graphemes?

Yes, but sometimes ogha is [eː]
bodhar [ˈboː(ə)ɾ]
foghlaim [ɸoːlˠəm´]
domhan [d̪ˠɔ͂ː(ə)nˠ]
domhnach [d̪ˠɔ͂ːnˠaχ]
rogha [reː]

Eidh and eigh (in words like "leigheas") -- is it safe to assume [eː] for those?

Yeah. Leigheas is [λeːsˠ]

About amh -- is it just in certain words that it represents [oː] in Ulster? Two words I do remember hearing recently while listeing to the recordings with the courses are "samhradh" and "damhsa", which were quite clearly [ˈsawɾu] and [ˈdawsə], not [ˈsoːɾu] and [ˈdoːsə]. So I'm wondering if there are any rules or general guidelines there.

Samhradh can be said [ˈsˠo(w)ːɾu]. Damhsa is always [ˈd̪ˠawsˠə] or [ˈd̪ˠaɥsˠə]. But maybe damhsa is an exception because it's a loanword.

What is the pronunciation of final -bh/-mh preceded by a consonant, as in "leanbh", "marbh", "searbh"?

[u]: ˈλanˠu, ˈmʷɑɾu, ˈʃaɾu

Finally, could I ask for the Ulster pronunciation of a few more specific words (which seem to vary a lot among the dialects...): taitin/taitníonn,

ˈt̪ˠɑtʲɪn (not sure) / ˈt̪ˠɑɲən̪ˠ (as if tainneann)


fiafraigh/fiafraíonn,

ˈɸjawɾi/ˈɸjawɾən̪ˠ


cuimhne/cuimhin/cuimhnigh

ˈkˠɪβ´ɲɪ/kˠu͂ːn (cumhain)/ˈkˠɪβ´ɲi

Also the forms of the verb "gabh" -- it seems from what I've heard that the root/imperative is pronounced [go], but what about other forms such as "gabháil", "gabhaim", etc.?

Gabh is [gˠo]. Gabháil [gˠɔːl], gabhaim [gˠoːm]

Another question is about the MH in words like talmhaíocht and the word taobh.

ˈt̪ˠɑlˠuwiar̥t̪ˠ
t̪ˠiːw or t̪ˠɨːw

What do we generally do with AOMH, AOBH?

aomh & aobh [ɨːw], [iːw]

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Thomas Leigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

MÒRAN taing, a Lughaidh!

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Thomas Leigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 03:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Whoops, I forgot, one more: the word "ádh" (luck) -- is that just [aː] ([æː]?), or is there some sort of diphthong?

Thanks again, you've been a huge help.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1739
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 07:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ádh is pronounced [æːw] in Ulster.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Laethanta Saoire (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 05:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Original Ulster for fadhb. Historically, probably with long [ɤ], thus: [ɸɤ:bʷ]. Same thing for broad gh: rogha [rɤ:]

Final bh, mh as [u] or [u:] is a reflex of the bi-labial fricative® that once was there. When short the vowel has the quality of the long u, not the short one (vowels vary in quality and length. Donegal has lost phonemic length diff in final position, I think).

“What do we generally do with AOMH, AOBH?”

Once upon a time they were an unrounded back vowel [ɯ] followed by a bi-labial fricative® but the tendency has been to move forward the vowel, but keep the height, so you get [i:]. In Munster, you have ao turn to [e:], which suggest that it was [ɤ:] historically there. See gaol (Gael, kin member) become like gaíol, or gaeal/gaéal

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1741
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 09:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In Ulster Irish, only stressed syllables can be long. Just as in Scottish Gaelic.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Thomas Leigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 09:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Lughaidh, a charaid, tha feadhain eile agam dhut, ma tha sin ceart gu leòr...


1. What is the Ulster pronunciation of one-syllable words ending in bh, like ubh or dubh? Is the bh pronounced there, or are they just [u] and [du]?

2. What is the Ulster pronunciation of fleadh/fleá?

3. Yesterday I saw something online that said the combination rs is always pronounced broad in Ulster Irish, even when flanked by slender vowels, so that a word like tuirseach is pronounced something like [ˈt̪ʊɾsah] rather than [ˈt̪ʊɾʲʃax]. Is this accurate?

@Laethanta Saoire:
I find what you wrote quite interesting, seeing as ao is pronounced [ɯː] in Scottish Gaelic. Is this pronunciation still used in Ulster at all, and if so, how widespread is it?

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Thomas Leigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 09:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And one more: the personal forms of the preposition "in" (ionam, ionat, etc.) -- what vowel do these start with in pronunciation? (I ask because I've heard [u] or [ʊ] a lot, but I wasn't sure what Ulster Irish did).

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1742
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 01:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

1. What is the Ulster pronunciation of one-syllable words ending in bh, like ubh or dubh? Is the bh pronounced there, or are they just [u] and [du]?

Ubh has a special form in Ulster: uibh, pronounced [əɸ´] at least in Gort a' Choirce.
Dubh is pronounced [d̪ˠu] in NW Donegal. I think there are differences in SW Donegal. I think it's something like [d̪ˠuʔ] in Teelin. Maybe someone here can verify in Wagner's book about Teelin Irish...

2. What is the Ulster pronunciation of fleadh/fleá?

[ɸ´λaːw], as far as I know.

3. Yesterday I saw something online that said the combination rs is always pronounced broad in Ulster Irish, even when flanked by slender vowels, so that a word like tuirseach is pronounced something like [ˈt̪ʊɾsah] rather than [ˈt̪ʊɾʲʃax]. Is this accurate?

Yeah, [ɼʃ] is rare in Ulster Irish. Tuirseach is pronounced [ˈt̪ˠɪɾʂaχ]. Doirse is dorsa (I think), etc.

I find what you wrote quite interesting, seeing as ao is pronounced [ɯː] in Scottish Gaelic. Is this pronunciation still used in Ulster at all, and if so, how widespread is it?

That sound does exist in older speakers' speech and in sean-nós songs. But younger speakers would have [iː] or [ɨː]


And one more: the personal forms of the preposition "in" (ionam, ionat, etc.) -- what vowel do these start with in pronunciation? (I ask because I've heard [u] or [ʊ] a lot, but I wasn't sure what Ulster Irish did).

We say [ɔ-]: ɔnˠəm, ɔnˠəd, ɑ͂n̪ˠ, ɪɲtʲi, ɔnˠɪɲ, ɔnˠəβ´, ɔnt̪ˠu

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 884
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 02:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Lughaidh,

Do you pronounce anything at the end of the word in "bia(dh)", "coga(dh)", "samhra(dh)" etc?

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1745
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 03:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

-adh is normally pronounced [u] when it's unstressed:

cogadh [ˈkˠɔgˠu]
samhradh [ˈsˠoː(w)ɾu]

But bia(dh) is pronounced [ˈb´iˑə] (genitive bídh)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 56
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 09:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"3. Yesterday I saw something online that said the combination rs is always pronounced broad in Ulster Irish, even when flanked by slender vowels, so that a word like tuirseach is pronounced something like [ˈt̪ʊɾsah] rather than [ˈt̪ʊɾʲʃax]. Is this accurate? "

I general rule in Irish dialects is when two coronals comtogether that the first is broad, regardless of original quality (except for tr in trí, maybe). Gweedore I think does final slender rt and on cúirt slender, I think. R and s are unstable together and we see retroflexion

"Do you pronounce anything at the end of the word in "bia(dh)", "coga(dh)", "samhra(dh)" etc?"

In every position, maybe apart from initial position, dh and gh meant the velar fricative moved to been [ɤ:] in all dialects (I guess this from it been in O Quiggin and Oilean Chléire, on opposite sides of the island. Later it changed to a schwa, and some times [j] in genitive conditions, or confused with the [u] from other nouns. Connacht keeps the [u] (amh) and [ə] (adh) endings seperate

I could not find the example in Teilinn

don't read this



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