I ndeiɼeaḋ na hoċtú (h)aoiſe déag ...
(= at the end of the 18th century ...)

I don't want to talk about history but about grammar :-)
Should haoise or aoise (of ... century) be used in the phrase above?

Michal made a phantastic pdf-file about Irish numbers: uimhreacha.pdf
According to him it should be aoise without a prefixed h. But I read it almost always as haoise (in case genitive of a noun is used).

Le meas
Lars

Yes it is "haoise", since ordinal numbers ending with -ú prefix h- to vowels.

(Message edited by Lughaidh on June 24, 2007)

fantastisch? "caoga"? brrr

Mar a scríobh MBM é fhéin:

quote:

Tríd is tríd, níl sa saothar seo ach cnuasach moltaí. Níl a leithéid de rud ann agus rialacha dochta
in aon teanga bheo, agus ní féidir cur síos céad faoin chéad iomlán a dhéanamh ar ghramadach
teanga nádúrtha, cuma cén teanga atá i gceist. Dála gach saothair eile ar chúrsaí gramadaí, is
léamh pearsanta é an saothar seo ar go leor bealaí, agus seans nach n-aontóidh gach duine liom
maidir le pointí áirithe. Ní lia duine ná tuairim, go háirithe más gramadach na Gaeilge atá idir
lámha, mar gheall ar dhifríochtaí idir na canúintí agus mar thoradh ar cheal úsáide na teanga sa
dioscúrsa poiblí.

Cén locht go baileach atá agat ar chaoga, a Róman?

quote:

Cén locht

I will tell you "cén locht". Just today on Gaeilge-B a learner got reprimanded for writing "trí ceisteanna". What next? Anyone saying "deich is fiche" instead of "tríocha" (or whatever that is?)?

Caoga etc were the original Old Irish forms. Why were they dropped? Maybe the Old Irish scribes used those forms because they corresponded to Latin words but the people had always used other variants? That is just a suggestion, but the origin of the 2 sets of number is clearly interesting!

quote:

Yes it is "haoise", since ordinal numbers ending with -ú prefix h- to vowels.

Yes, i dtuiseal ainmneach, ach sa ghinideach?
I would write "haoise", too. It's much easier to pronounce.
But according to MBM (and probably according to his sources), h-prefix should be removed in genitive.

Lars

Caoga:

http://www.google.com/custom?cx=015080749438202091167%3Aj3njhim80qu&q=caoga&sa=S earch&cof=GFNT%3A%23666666%3BLH%3A55%3BCX%3ACELT%2520Search%2520Engine%3BDIV%3A% 23cccccc%3BFORID%3A0%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fcoop%2Fimages%2Fgoo gle_custom_search_sm%2Egif%3BLP%3A1%3BAH%3Aleft&hl=en&client=google-coop

quote:

Is é líon do chuadar innte triar fear, eadhon, Bioth, Fionntain, agus Ladhra:— Ceasair, Barrann, agus Balbha, agus caoga inghean i maille riu.

Má bhí sé maith a dhóthain do Céitinn..

Tríocha:

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop&cof=AH%3Aleft%3BCX%3ACELT% 2520Search%2520Engine%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fcoop%2Fimages%2Fgoogle _custom_search_sm.gif%3BLH%3A55%3BLP%3A1%3BGFNT%3A%23666666%3BDIV%3A%23cccccc%3B &q=tr%C3%ADocha&btnG=Search&cx=015080749438202091167%3Aj3njhim80qu

quote:

Má bhí sé maith a dhóthain do Céitinn..

Ironic, ain't it? When it suits them - CO enthusiasts say - "oh, but we are not going to go back to Keating, are we?" and when no - "look Keating used them!". I think it is called hypocrisy in English.

quote:

Maybe the Old Irish scribes used those forms because they corresponded to Latin words but the people had always used other variants?

That is very probable. There vigesimal system in Scottish, Breton, Welsh, Manx. Even French which took place of Gallish has some remains of vigesimal system. I simply don't grasp how Irish could be the only Celts with decimal system, especially bearing in mind that Manx and Scottish split from Irish not so long time ago. Think about it!

There's a theory that Normannic vigesimal system spreaded to Britain and Ireland. (Karl Menninger: "Zahlwort und Ziffer. Eine Kulturgeschichte der Zahl")

There's a vigesimal system in Danish, too.

By the way:
I couldn't find "vigesimal" in Irish dictionaries, so I invented "fichiúlach" (in analogy to "deachúlach" = decimal).

Lars

quote:

There's a theory that Normannic vigesimal system spreaded to Britain and Ireland.

How does it explain vigesimal system in Breton and especially in French, where it is universally deemed to be remnants of Gallish counting?

The Irish quite logically noticed that man has only 20 digits. How could you count to 100 without 5 sets of of hands and feet?

There is a vigesimal system in Basque. Supposedly all pre-Indo-European languages of the West of Europe had such a system of counting, which was later adopted by speakers of some Indo-European languages. The fact that Irish also kept the older, decimal system is a bit weird. Perhaps the decimal system survived in Irish until they settled in Ireland where they adopted the vigesimal system. The decimal way might have been used up to the Old Irish period in a 'higher' variety of language, while the vigesimal one was reserved for the everyday usage. After English had started to gain ground at the cost of Irish in both geographical and social sense, the elevated speech gradually went out of use, taking the decimal counting system with it.
Daithí

A Dhaithí, a chara,

Vigesimal is the older indigenous European system - hence its presence in most of western Europe. Basque/Euskera, being our oldest lingo, is the key and shows that other ’Indo-European’ tongues were influenced by the indigenous languages.

Decimal use in Irish is from English influence - gan aon cheist faoi dtaobh de.

quote:

Decimal use in Irish is from English influence - gan aon cheist faoi dtaobh de.

Ach ní raibh aon Bhéarla in Éirinn nuair a bhí an tSean-Ghaeilge in úsáid (ca. 700-900 AD), agus is é an córas deachúil a bhí i réim ansin!

20 fiche
30 tricho
40 cethorcho
50 coíca
60 sesca
70 sechtmogo
80 ochtmoga
90 nócha

Bhí na scórtha in úsáid freisin, ach bhaintí feidhm as grúpaí eile chomh maith:

da fhichit = cethorcho = 40
tri fichit = 60
secht fichit = 140

agus

tri coícait = 150
co trib nónburib = le 27 nduine

Well traditionally ini England phrases like twenty-five were said as "five and twenty". My grandmother used to say "it's five and twenty to six"!

quote:

Ach ní raibh aon Bhéarla in Éirinn nuair a bhí an tSean-Ghaeilge in úsáid (ca. 700-900 AD), agus is é an córas deachúil a bhí i réim ansin!

Ná i Sasana!

quote:

How does it explain vigesimal system in Breton and especially in French, where it is universally deemed to be remnants of Gallish counting?

Perhaps all those theories (including Basque theory) can exist because there's no real evidence.
But if "tri fichit" etc. did exist in Old Irish this could be a convincing evidence of an own development in Irish.

Let's come back to the topic of this thread, please:
Is it "na hochtú haoise" and not "na hochtú aoise"?
(Acc. to Tobair na Gaedhilge both forms ar used: h-prefix prevails in Ulster (with two exception), but no h in Connacht (with at least one exception). I couldn't find an example of Munster texts there.

And another question:
According to Graiméar Gaeilge n mB. Criostaí genitive is not used following orduimhreacha. But actually it is, or is that regarded as wrong (at least in CO)? Are there differences in dialects?

So what is best to say?
(deireadh) an ochtú haois (Google: 112)
(deireadh) na hochtú haoise (Google: 86)
(deireadh) na hochtú aoise (Google: 7)

Lars

(Message edited by lars on June 26, 2007)

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&rls=GGLJ%2CGGLJ%3A2006-39%2CGGLJ%3Aen-GB&q=%22 na+hocht%C3%BA+aoise%22&meta=

Ag féachaint ar na leathanaigh aimisthe anseo, ní chuirfinn "na hOchtú Aoise" as an áireamh go hiomlán.

Meas tú an gné atá anseo go dtig leat do rogha fhéin a dhéanamh? Tá an cuma air go bhfuil dhá leagan le fáil uaireanta ar an suíomh chéanna.

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Maidir leis an gceist eile, tá fianaise ó Dennis thuas go raibh an dá chórás in usáid sa tSeanghaeilge, mar atá fós.

'Seacht mbliana déag ar cheithre fichid ó shin bhunaigh ár sinsir náisiún úr ar an mór-roinn seo, a gineadh sa tSaoirse agus a tiomnaíodh don smaoineamh gur le comhchearta a thagann gach duine ar an saol.'