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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through June 29, 2007 » Deotranaimí 37:28 « Previous Next »

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Pádraig
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 12:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It seems that the word "ceap" is one of those items that defies English translation. For example, Beidh tú i do cheap uafáis looks like it should read "You will be a block of horror." I know that's not what's intended, but just how do we define "ceap?"

And while I'm twisting my brain, what is the source of the expression i mo or i do used with to indicate classification?

Tá sé i do cheap uafáis.

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 12:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Phádraig!

In the Irish Bible compiled by Bedell the book is called Deuteronomi. I presume you mean 28:37, which reads:

"Agus biáidh tú ad úathbhás, 7 ad sheanrádh, 7 ad fhorfhocul, a measc na nuile chineadh gur a mbéara an TIGHEARNA thú."

So the word ceap is not used there.

In the modern version: ceap would seem to be a similar usage to that in Domhnall's dictionary: bhí sé in a cheap magaidh acú - he was the butt of ridicule.

It means the stocks, eg to put someone in the stocks, and then the word branches out into phrases meaning "laughingstock", "butt of ridicule". So it seems the phrase you referred to means the object of horror.

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Dennis
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 12:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Deot. 37:28 ?? Cén áit a bhfuil an véarsa sin? Maidir le "ceap uafáis", ní fhaca mé riamh roimhe é agus ní thuigim ró-mhaith é, actually. Is cor cainte seanbhunaithe "ceap magaidh" (= laughing-stock), ach ní féidir liom smaoineamh ar aon "cheap X" eile.
quote:

Tá sé i do cheap uafáis.

Recte: Tá sé ina cheap uafáis.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 01:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Deot. 28:37. Mo dhearmad. Gabh mo leithscéal.

Tá sé i do cheap uafáis.

Recte: Tá sé ina cheap uafáis.

Beidh tú i do cheap uafáis, i do sheanfochal agus i do nath ina measc na gciníocha go léir ina seolfaidh an Tiarna thú. (An Bíobla Naofa -- Maynooth)

A Pheadar, I was not aware of the text to which you refer. GRMA. Is it correct to assume that it is in Middle Irish? The verse you cited seems to have some strange constructs.

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Pádraig
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oops. That unregistered guest is Pádraig. Somehow I got logged out. As I was saying, I'm not clear on the differences between Old and Middle Irish and am not sure of the approximate historical periods in which each flourished. I have far less trouble with Old, Middle and Modern English and the eras of Beowulf, Chaucer, and Virginia Wolfe.

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 04:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.cornafean.com/william_bedell.htm

Bedell's bible is 17th century Irish.

Peadar has explained the rest.

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Pádraig
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 04:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is that to say Bedell is modern Irish? Peadar's sample doesn't seem so. However, the King James translation doesn't read like modern English, but it is.

Meanwhile, in another part of the forest, my curiosity about the use of i do remains. Anyone? I know I've seen it used with bí and a predicate noun or adjective the way Is signals classification:

Is múinteoir mé agus tá mé i mo mhúinteoir.

Please tell me I didn't dream this.

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 04:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

fig: ceap magaḋ a laughing stock; ceap céille "a block of sense" ag Dinneen.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 04:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Agus biáidh tú ad úathbhás, 7 ad sheanrádh, 7 ad fhorfhocul, a measc na nuile chineadh gur * a mbéara an TIGHEARNA thú.

7 = agus
biáidh = beidh
úathbhás = uafás
sheanrá(dh)
fhorfhocul = forfhocal
chine(adh)
TIGHEARNA = Tiarna
ad = i'd

* I think there is a word missing!



I can't help you with i do, except to say that it means what it does!

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 02:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus, I missed out a word in transcription in my haste. The word missed out was "gus" not "gur". Of course, I checked a couple of times as seanchló r and s can be difficult to distinghuish, but it is gus. I would love to read a long scholarly article about bedell's Irish if anyone knows any.


In response to question: Bedell's Bible is EARLY modern Irish. Not Middle Irish or anything like that (it was at least 500 years too late for middle Irish). The NT (Domhnall's NT) was done in the early 1600s. Bedell's OT in t he 1640s during the war and so not published until 1680s. Whether they tidied up the language in the 1680s I don't know. I have a lovely edition of the whole Bible published in 1827, in seanchló with the abbreviations (see Vincent Morley's site for explanation). It cost me $100 from a US bookshop on Abebooks, and I think it is worth much more.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 03:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Peadar, tabhair dúinn an rann deiridh ina iomláine, le do thoil!

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 05:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus, that's all there is. For completeness:

Deut (I agree that Deuteronomi was not a very good Irish name as it violates spelling rules. Deotranaimí is much better) 28: 36-38:

36 Béaruidh an TIGHEARNA thú féin, 7 an rígh noch chuirfeas tú os do chion, go tír nár baithnidh dhuit féin nó dod aithribh; 7 annsoin do dhéana tú fóghnamh do dhéeibh oile, do chrannuibh 7 do chlochuibh.
37 Agus biáidh tú ad úathbhás, 7 ad sheanrádh, 7 ad fhorfhocul, a measc na nuile chineadh gus a mbéara an TIGHEARNA thú.
38 Béara tú mórán síl amach fán machaire, 7 ní chruinneocha tú achd beagán a steach; óir íosuid na lócuistigh é.

I enjoy trying to decipher the script and the nod's. If you have a favourite passage, Aonghus, tell me and I'll post it.

Here is everyone's favourite passage. Can you work out where it is from? (OK it's an easy one!)

ANN sa tosach do bhí an Bríathar, 7 do bhí an Bríathar a bhfochair Dé, 7 do bé Día an Bríathar. Do bhí so air tús a bhfochair Dé. Leisean atáid na huile neithe déunta; 7 gan é ní bhfuil éinnídh déunta da ndéarnadh. Ann san do bhí beatha; 7 dób í an beatha solus na ndáoine. Agus soillsighidh an solus sin ann sa dórchadas; 7 níor ghabh an dórchadas chuige é.

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Pádraig
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 09:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That's gotta be John, Chapter 1: "In the beginning was the Word ... "

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Pádraig
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 10:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Also, throughout the above cited verse from John we see
do bhí, do bé, etc

How are these translated, and what is the source of the "do?" Any connection between this usuage and the i do I asked about earlier?

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 03:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The "gus" still has me puzzled.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 03:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Pádraig, as far as I know the "do" is a way of indicating past tense in those cases, but is not used that way any more.


"Tá tú i do X" is. I'd translate it as "You are an X" where X is a condition/state.

Tá tú i do mhúinteoir
Tá tú i do shuí
...


The modern version of Eoin 1:1 is:
Bhí an Briathar ann i dtús báire
agus bhí an Briathar in éineacht le Dia

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Aonghus
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 04:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dinneen has guſ see go prep

and there: go prep. with acc., pref h to vowels and becomes goſ, guſ. go ſ before art. ....

a measc na nuile chineadh gus a mbéara an TIGHEARNA thú.

i measc an uile chine go mbéarfaidh an TIARNA ina measc thú

among all proples to which the LORD will bring you

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Aonghus
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 04:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

PS. I have 1936 editions of Eoin Lúcáis and acts which I bought for 50c each in the Hibernian Bible Society on Dawson Street in Dublin.

I don't know if they are still in stock.
(Uilliam Ó Domhnaill 1602 translation)

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Pádraig
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 05:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

<http://www.worldscriptures.org/pages/irish.html>

I'm not sure what edition this is, but it's different from the one Peadar cited.

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 05:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

This Page
This shows the first few verses from John's Gospel in the Joynt version. This page is taken from a New Testament first published in 1951 by Hibernian BS, Dublin.



It's only slightly different:
"ANN sa tosach" has been changed to "Ar dtús"

The 1936 edition I have is the same as the one you've linked to: but Peadar's edition is a century older.

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 06:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

First of all: the edition of the Bible I have is Bedell's Bible (ie Bedell's OT bound in with Domhnall's NT) and so the text is from the 1680s. The 1827 reprint did not change the text.

Now: do:

ANN sa tosach do bhí an Bríathar, 7 do bhí an Bríathar a bhfochair Dé, 7 do bé Día an Bríathar. Do bhí so air tús a bhfochair Dé. Leisean atáid na huile neithe déunta; 7 gan é ní bhfuil éinnídh déunta da ndéarnadh. Ann san do bhí beatha; 7 dób í an beatha solus na ndáoine. Agus soillsighidh an solus sin ann sa dórchadas; 7 níor ghabh an dórchadas chuige é.

Do is the marker of certain tenses, chiefly preterite, conditional and imperfect. So: do bhí is the past tense. Even though in modern Irish the do is not used (unless the word starts with a vowel), the lenition is still there, showing that something was once there. [Words just don't get lenited for no reason in Irish. Either they are the lenited versions of words once not lenited, like thall/tall, or there are some missing particles. The verbal noun "bheith" would have been cited as "do bheith" in earlier types of Irish. Lenition is not just there for nothing.]

The "do bé" threw me at first. Here the do is not followed by lenition, and superficially it looks like a part of the substantive verb bheith. But "God was the Word" is a copula identiification sentence. The chart in the back of Dinneen's shows that the past of the copula "ba" was once "do ba". And I think a pronoun "é" is in there too. [I am not sure how these are handled in modern Irish. I believe the copula cannot be redduced to b' in front of é nowadays.] Anyway: do + ba + é = do bé.

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Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 07:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

B'fhéidir go mbeidh suim agaibh sa leagan Gàidhlig de Deut. 28:37.

Agus bithidh tu a'd' uamhas, a'd' shamhladh, agus a'd' leth-fhocal, am measg nan uile chinneach gus an treòraich an Tighearn' thu.

Tá an friotal sách seanfhaiseanta i gcomórtas le Gàidhlig an lae inniu.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 07:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Phádraig,

Bhí ceist agat maidir le húsáid "i do". Is cuid den phatrún seo a leanas é:

Tá mé i mo Bhéarlóir.
Tá tú i do Bhéarlóir.
Tá sé ina Bhéarlóir.
Tá sí ina Béarlóir.
Táimid (tá muid) inár mBéarlóirí.
Tá sibh in bhur mBéarlóirí.
Tá siad ina mBéarlóirí.

An bhfeiceann tú anois an chaoi a oibríonn sé? Literally, I am in my English-speaker. = Is Béarlóir mé.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Pádraig
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Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 11:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An bhfeiceann tú anois an chaoi a oibríonn sé?

A Dennis,
Smaoiním atá sé agam. Is é mar is é.

A Pheadar, a chara,
Go raibh maith agat. Tá sé intuihthe anois. An bhfuil tú i do mhúinteoir teanga? Dá bheifeá!

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 02:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Phádraig: I am not a teacher. But curiously, in your Irish you used "i do mhúinteoir", which is precisely the grammatical point Dennis explained to you.

I suppose I should add that some of these forms can be contracted?

Táim im múinteoir (no lenition if "im" is contracted)
Tánn tú id mhúinteoir
Tá sé ina mhúinteoir
Tá sí ina múinteoir
Táimíd inár múinteorí
Tánn sibh i n-bhur múinteoirí.
Táid siad ina múinteoirí.

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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 03:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The "i do X" structure connects to the way the language speakers see a trait as an innate or temporal.

Thus a king, who has no kingly traits would be "tá sé ina rí".

I suppose this has nuances that modern speakers ignore. There's a good reason to think that "mar x" commutes with "... ina X".

The movement verbs constitue their own category with their specific behaviour.

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Pádraig
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Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 04:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Therefore, instead of complimenting Peadar as was my intention, I insulted him by implying: tá sé ina mhúinteoir.

Gabh mo leisceál, a Pheadar. Dá bheifeá múinteoir.

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Dennis
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Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 07:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Thus a king, who has no kingly traits would be "tá sé ina rí".

I don't think it has ever been understood in that sense. The structure only goes back to Early Modern Irish, and the examples found in DIL certainly don't convey that sort of judgment. There's nothing of that in today's language.
quote:

Therefore, instead of complimenting Peadar as was my intention, I insulted him by implying: tá sé ina mhúinteoir.

Not at all. Dónall Ó Baoill, a linguist and native speaker of Donegal Irish once said specifically that these are equivalent: Is múinteoir é. = Tá sé ina mhúinteoir. Having a long memory, I went back to the archives of Gaelic-L and found this from June 1994:

A Chairde,
is ionann ciall do na habairti/ seo a leans:
is mu/inteoir e/, ta/ se/ ina mhu/inteoir, mu/inteoir ata/ ann, mu/inteoir is ea
 e/.
beannachtai/
do/nall o/ baoill


There are some instances in which a state of being is so deeply rooted that the structure "Is X é" is felt to be more appropriate, however, such as "Is fear é, is bean í."

(Message edited by dennis on June 24, 2007)

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Pádraig
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Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 08:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, it's good to know that I don't have to concern myself with unintentional offenses. Also, as Peadar noted above, I appear to have obsessed on the question to the point that I'm inadvertantly using it in place of "Is múinteoir é."

There are some instances in which a state of being is so deeply rooted that the structure "Is X é" is felt to be more appropriate


I'm also pleased to learn that there may be SOME occasions for hair-splitting

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 02:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was talking about modern Irish.

And, sorry, but I still think it's different:

You don't represent people by saying: "Ta/ se/ ina mhu/inteoir".

You'd probably say "is mu/inteoir e/; mu/inteoir ata/ ann; mu/inteoir is ea e/".

And among those here I would consider it to be different in the way one uses them practically in talk or writings.

Saying it differently, I still think different forms convey different meanings, and that is what we need to be looking for.

Thanks

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Dennis
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

You don't represent people by saying: "Ta/ se/ ina mhu/inteoir".

So you contradict Dónall Ó Baoill, a native speaker, professional linguist, and author of Úrchúrsa Gaeilge: Cúrsa Leasaithe Dírithe ar Laigí Áirithe i Scríobh na Gaeilge ?

Abair linn, mura miste leat, cad iad na cáiliochtaí agus na dintiúir agatsa sna cúrsaí seo.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

First I need to correct what I'd previously written - it's "present" not represent.

Now my contradiction to what honorary mr. Dónall Ó Baoill has said is only because I'm studying Structural Linguistics as opposed to other forms of it.

And in it we consider different forms to have different meanings, unless one has researched it and gave proof that those forms jave been neutralised.

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Dennis
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

David,

I suggest you spend more time collecting data before you apply the theory, like a good scientist. In this case, you might want to simply google "ina mhúinteoir", taking care to note the provenance of the many, many examples you will be given.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Gaelgannaire
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

On Hair spliting,

Silim go bhfuil difear beag idir 'Tá sé ina mhúinteoir' agus 'is múinteoir é'.

Is cinnte go mbaintear úsáid astu faoi chuinsí difriúla.

Silim go bhfuil ...

'Tá sé ina mhúinteoir i mBaile Átha Claith'

níos nadúrtha ná ...

'Is múinteoir é i mBÁC'

Níl a fhios agam cad tuige agus chan ionann sé sin is a rá nach dtiocfadh leat a rá gurb ionann an chiall.

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Róman
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Táim im múinteoir" has a different meaning in Ulster and Munster, so there is no sense to argue.


In Ulster this is very common, although "Múinteoir atá ionnam" is even more common.

In Munster it is used only for temporary occupations in positive form - "Táim im múinteoir" - "I am acting like a teacher". For someone who is really teacher "Múinteoir is ea mé" is said.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Gaelgannaire
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Táim im múinteoir" - "I am acting like a teacher".

It can mean that in Ulster of course but I agree that it is less discriminate than the Munster example. I have a friend in Rinn, I must ask him.

I mind someone discussing this very grammar point with one of the MacGriannas and whilst he was sure of subtle differences I dont recall him coming up with anything too clear in English.

"Múinteoir atá ionnam"

Don't know if I would go as far as to say that is very common, in response to a question only I think anyway, but certainly if people were discussing teachers etc. and then someone turns round and says, 'bhail, múinteoir atá ionnam fhéin'.

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Róman
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"Múinteoir atá ionnam"



The point is that this expression is completely alien to Munster, while is rather usual in Ulster. In Munster it can be used (if used at all) only in negative form:

Níl ach múinteoir ionnam. - I am only a teacher.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 01:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If I google it, how many of the occurances would I find to be of original Gaelic speakers?

And that's one part of it. So I base my arguments on what I already know from books written by those who possess/possessed Gaelic as a mother tongue.

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Dennis
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 03:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

We've had Ó Baoill's quite specific testimony already. For Cois Fhairrge Irish, Mícheál Ó Siadhail (a competent linguist when he was doing that, by most estimates) gives us:

Tá Cáit ina múinteoir anois. (LI, 26.3.v)
quote:

So I base my arguments on what I already know from books written by those who possess/possessed Gaelic as a mother tongue.

Nach féidir leat do thuairim a chosaint níos fearr ná sin? Níl a fhios againn céard a léigh tú, ach is léir go bfhuil a lán ann nár léigh tú riamh.
quote:

You don't represent people by saying: "Ta/ se/ ina mhu/inteoir".

Más é an chaoi nach bhfuil tú sásta géilleadh don fhianaise thuas agus a admháil nach bhfuil an ceart agat, cá bhfuil do chuid fianaise féin? Fíricí atá uainn, ní ráiteas ginearálta faoina bhfuil léite agat.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Dennis
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 03:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In Munster it is used only for temporary occupations in positive form - "Táim im múinteoir" - "I am acting like a teacher".

Are you quite sure of that? In chapter 10 of the original Teach Yourself Irish, which is firmly based on Munster usage, we have:

tá sé ina fhear shaibhir "he is a rich man"
tá sí ina bó mhaith "she is a good cow"

I'm not sure about wealth, but goodness in cows is usually a fundamental trait, not something that the cow is just acting at temporarily.

They go on to say:

is fear saibhir é, fear saibhir is ea é; is bó mhaith í, bó mhaith is ea í are also correct. In sentences of mere definition only the the copula is may be used: is fíon é (or fíon is ea é) "it is wine (not water)"; ní sionnach é sin ach gadhar "that is not a fox but a dog". But in sentences of description either form is permissible, and both are equally common.

So, tá muid tar éis cloisteáil ón trí chanúint ar an bpointe seo.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 05:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh, well, I know what I read, to ask me now on what books I dare say what I said is something I can not do, just because of recalling it. But I can say only that I remember different uses - wheather it was a presentation or a part of a narrative texteme.

Yes, I admit I can't tell you where I recall it from, though I can remember we (in one of the classes at the university) were dealing with this issue, and not from rumours, but from first hand.

You know what, I'm not going to fight on this issue, if you're sure about the statements from your sources, then good for you.

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Dennis
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 07:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think the issue is worth examining, David. But relying on what you remember from a lecture is poor science -- and doesn't linguistics claim to be a science?

I believe that Gael-gan-Náire got us closest to the core of the mattter when he wrote:
quote:

Silim go bhfuil ...

'Tá sé ina mhúinteoir i mBaile Átha Claith'

níos nadúrtha ná ...

'Is múinteoir é i mBÁC'

As far as I know people speaking all dialects can say "tá sé ina mhúinteoir". And that doesn't necessarily imply that he is just a temporary teacher, or that he has the name of a teacher without the substance. But there is a tendancy -- stronger some places and with some people than others -- to further qualify that statement:

Tá sé ina mhúinteoir i mBaile Átha Cliath.
Tá sé ina mhúinteoir anois.
Tá sé ina mhúinteoir le fiche bliain anuas.
Tá sé ina mhúinteoir maith.

This is the structure that bears looking into.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dónall Ó Baoill's comments have to be seen as authoritative. But that does not mean that there is no nuance whatsoever. Languages don't have lots of different ways of saying the same thing with no nuances between them.

I would not overemphasize Teach Yourself Irish as a guide to Munster Irish. Reading the book more and more, it seems worse and worse. Does anyone actually know whether Myles Dillon was a native speaker of Irish? There are some mistakes in the book, and the whole is put together so badly... I am not sure that Dillon's Munster Irish went down to the level of nuance.

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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I believe so too.

And further more the structures:

is múinteoir é, múinteoir atá ann, múinteoir is ea é

need a check, I really don't believe that they are the same on the texteme and message level.

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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Though "múinteoir atá ann" does seem to be northern dialect, at least in "Now You're Talking".

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Now, let's give some examples from Gerald O'Nolan's grammar 1934. He says that the copula is classificatory, but the tá construction shows a mode of being. In particular the tá + ina + Genitive construction he identifies as having 2 meanings: 1) change; and 2) actual condition. These are all interesting examples.

1) change

Bhí sé 'na thráthnóna: evening had come
Ní bhia Éire 'na h-Éirinn: Ireland will no longer be Ireland.
Bhí Calighula in' ímpire sa Róimh: Caligula was Emperor in Rome

2) actual condition

An fhaid a bheidh féar ag fás agus Dia 'na Dhia: as long as grass grows and God is God!
Go raibh 'na namhaid ag an ímpire: that he was an enemy of the Empire.
Tu ghá rádh go bhfuilir id' Dhia: saying that you are God!
An croidhe so tá 'na charraig le cruadhas: this heart is as hard as a rock.

he comments "these exx. show that in this construction tá does not always imply change."

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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 12:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK, so is it right to compare this IS:TÁ couple to the SER:ESTAR couple in Spanish?

And about the biblical text, well it seems that the text talks about a state of change, about something the people would become if...

It's not an inherent trait, but they will turn to be this way.

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Pádraig
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Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 09:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

David has brought me back to the question with which this thread began

Beidh tú i do cheap uafáis looks like it should read "You will be a block of horror. (object of horror according to Peadar's earlier observation.) Whether the intention is "you will be" or "you will become" is one problem. Additionally I'm wondering if the intent of "uafás" might be something less severe than "horror."

Foclóir Scoile gives "astonishment" as a possibility? Do you see any clue in the context of the 1680's manuscript?

Oh yes, the New International Version (NIV) reads, "you will become a thing of horror."

Score one for Beidh tú i do = a process of becoming.

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 10:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Luther translated as:
Und du wirst zum Entsetzen, zum Sprichwort und zum Spott werden unter allen Völkern, zu denen der HERR dich treibt.


Score 2!

Since the context is what will happen to a disobedient Israel, I think "object of horror" is correct.

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David ME (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 12:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Hebrew text reads:

לז: וְהָיִיתָ לְשַׁמָּה, לְמָשָׁל וְלִשְׁנִינָה--בְּכֹל הָעַמִּים, אֲשֶׁר-יְנַהֶגְךָ יְהוָה, שָׁמָּה.

vehayita leSHAMMA, lemashal velishnina -- bekhol ha'ammim asher yenahegkha YHWH shámma

SHAMMA - means destruction, as far as I know.

and you'll be (originally "were") destruction, proverb and a taunt -- in all peoples where god will lead you.

I hope that would help in the Gaelic translation.

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Dennis
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Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 07:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Teach Yourself Irish ... There are some mistakes in the book

An féidir leat na meancóga a fuair tú a thabhairt dúinn? Ba mhaith liom iad a bhreacadh síos sa leabhar féin.

Agus GRMA, a Pheadair, as 7 February 1641/2 a mhíniú dom!

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Róman
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 02:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Beidh tú i do cheap uafáis



Regarding those ina múinteoirí.

In my textbook "An Ghaeilge" by Aydan Doyle (professor at Cork Univeristy) there is grammar point which is called (surprise, surprise) - "Expression of temporary (sic!) occupation"

So the book draws a clear contrast between "Múinteoir is ea é" and "Tá sé ina mhúinteoir", stressing that the latter sentence basically means that he was not, but he is now somebody, so the sentence can be also translated "He has become a teacher".

So the sentence "Tá Cáit ina múinteoir anois" exactly means the same - "Cáith has become a teacher"

And the final nail into the coffin of stating that those two sentences are the same. The book notes that "ina" expression cannot be used with nationalities. Thus, you may say:

Éireannach is ea mé, but you cannot say:

Táim im Éireannach.

(Message edited by Róman on June 27, 2007)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 03:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dennis,

there is one thing on p79 of TYI, presuming pagination is the same in all editions. He suggests "cad tá sí a dhéanamh", but the proper Munster construction is "cad tá á dhéanamh aici". That tells me he may not have been a native of the area whose dialect he was presenting, and I don't necessarily trust the book for every single nuance.

Róman, you are the Munster guru. Tánn tú id ghurú anso. Have you noticed any other things?

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Róman
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 04:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

People in Ciarraí and Gaoth Dobhair (natives!) started recently saying "cad tá sí ag déanamh" even. I don't think anyone would argue grammatic merits of such expression...

I personally see this as direct translation of "What is she doing?" and not native idiom

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 04:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, Róman, that is just like the "I could of" in English. If "cad tá sí ag déanamh" is being said - then logically you can extend that to all objects of the verbal noun:

It should be: is deacair an doras do/a dhúnadh

But would those same people say: is deacair an doras ag dúnadh?

By the way the form "cad tá sí ag déanamh" is taught in the Tús Maith course, and not flagged up as incorrect.

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Róman
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 04:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"cad tá sí ag déanamh" is taugh



This expression is tantamount to using nominative after verbal noun. Some people may say they don't care, but I think it is ruining Irish grammar structure from within.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Aonghus
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 08:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

By the way the form "cad tá sí ag déanamh" is taught in the Tús Maith course, and not flagged up as incorrect



Ouch. Sets my teeth on edge. For once I agree with Róman.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 08:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Interestingly (Reassuringly!), I found NO use of "cad tá X ag déanamh", but plenty of "cad tá á dhéanamh"

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&rls=GGLJ%2CGGLJ%3A2006-39%2CGGLJ%3Aen-GB&q=%22 cad+t%C3%A1+%C3%A1+dh%C3%A9anamh%22&meta=

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Róman
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 09:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

the structure is rather "cad tá á dhéanamh ag + smth". The other option is saying "cad tá sé/sibh/siad a dhéanamh"

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 09:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus, I can't copy and paste in my browser at the moment - it may be a virus. I can copy and paste in Word. So: I can't give you a Google link, but try this search term: "cad atá" + "ag déanamh".

Of course with a lot of dody Irish on the net it would be extraordinary if not one case came up. First of all most people would write "cad atá" and not "cad tá", and second the construction we are talking about has a "sé" or something in the middle, and so you have to make a search term in the way I indicated. You can find about 600 examples on Google. There are lots of examples of "cad atá sí ag déanamh" on the net.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 10:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.google.ie/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2 006-39,GGLJ:en-GB&q=%22cad+at%c3%a1%22+%22ag+d%c3%a9anamh%22

I found only one example of "cad atá sí ag déanamh"

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&rls=GGLJ%2CGGLJ%3A2006-39%2CGGLJ%3Aen-GB&q=%22 cad+at%C3%A1+s%C3%AD+ag+d%C3%A9anamh%22&meta=

(But it still sets my teeth on edge....)

Peadar, má tá Firefox agat, tá an fhadhb céanna maidir le greamú feicthe agam ó h-am go chéile. Tosaigh seisiún nua (agus faigh an leagan is deanaí )

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Pádraig
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 10:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

De réir dealraimh is foinse diospóireachta fada an Bíobla. Cad is an churiarracht?

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus, are you sure it is "ó h-am go chéile", in terms of H prefixation I mean. Isn't it "ó Éirinn" and not "ó hÉirinn"? Please excuse me if I am rude in challenging you. I just want to find out the right form.

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus, can I ask you as a fluent speaker whether the 17th century version of John 1:1 strikes you as "more beautiful" than the modern version? Is there the same situation as with English (eg most people would say the King James Version and the Douai Version are "more beautiful" than modern translations)?

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Róman
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think Aonghus mixed up the place of "h" from other version of the same expression:

ó am go ham

Obviously, there is no "h" in "ó am go chéile".

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Pádraig
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus, can I ask you as a fluent speaker whether the 17th century version of John 1:1 strikes you as "more beautiful" than the modern version? Is there the same situation as with English (eg most people would say the King James Version and the Douai Version are "more beautiful" than modern translations)?

I hope this question does't get lost in the shuffle. Ir's a fascinating question that few are able to respond to.

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 02:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Bhí an Briathar ann i dtús báire
agus bhí an Briathar in éineacht le Dia



le hais:

quote:

ANN sa tosach do bhí an Bríathar, 7 do bhí an Bríathar a bhfochair Dé, 7 do bé Día an Bríathar.



Tá leagan Uí Dhomhnaill níos "airde"

Is dócha go bhfuil sé níos áille, ceart go leor.


Nua gach nuachtán, agus sean gach scrioptúir?

quote:

whether the 17th century version of John 1:1 strikes you as "more beautiful" than the modern version?



You may. It is.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 03:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Nua gach nuachtáin, agus sean gach scrioptúir

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Dennis
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 03:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"Expression of temporary (sic!) occupation" So the book draws a clear contrast between "Múinteoir is ea é" and "Tá sé ina mhúinteoir", stressing that the latter sentence basically means that he was not, but he is now somebody, so the sentence can be also translated "He has become a teacher".

That's fine, and it can certainly be used to stress becoming. But the problem I have is with "temporary occupation". Does "tá sé ina mhúinteoir" imply that his being a teacher is only temporary? After all, he could well go on to make an lifetime occupation of it.
quote:

So the sentence "Tá Cáit ina múinteoir anois" exactly means the same - "Cáith has become a teacher"

Since Ó Siadhail gave us that sentence, I'll let him comment further on it:

This idiom, at least to a certain extent, emphasises the state of having become something; 'I am a teacher' can be expressed by Is múinteoir mé or by Tá mé i mo mhúinteoir.

Note his second part of his sentence, and the nuance of the first.
quote:


And the final nail into the coffin of stating that those two sentences are the same. The book notes that "ina" expression cannot be used with nationalities.

Well, that is generally true. I made the same point earlier on in regard to sexual identity:
quote:

There are some instances in which a state of being is so deeply rooted that the structure "Is X é" is felt to be more appropriate, however, such as "Is fear é, is bean í.

And Ó Siadhail says the same thing with a little more nuance ("normally"):

On the other hand 'I am an Irishman' is normally Is Éireannach mé as that is felt as a permanent state.

Now, I'd like to propose some acceptable ways of breaking that "rule":

Bhí sé ina fhear ar feadh daichead bliain, ach is bean anois í tar éis na hobráide.

Bhí sé ina Cheanadach nuair a rugadh é, ach uchtaíodh go gairid ina dhiaidh sin agus is Francach anois é.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Róman
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 04:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Bhí sé ina fhear ar feadh daichead bliain, ach is bean anois í tar éis na hobráide.



Hmm, in this particular sentence - I would think it is vice versa:

Fear ab ea é ar feadh daichead blian, ach tá sé(???) ina bhean tar éis na hobráide anois.


A permanent trait given by God has been replaced with something rather temporary. You never know if s/he doesn't change her/his mind again

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 04:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You can translate these two into Russian:

Múinteoir is ea é: Он профессор.
Tá sé ina mhúinteoir: Он профессором.

Ní bhia Éire 'na h-Éirinn: Ирландия не будет Ирландией.


I am not sure you will agree, but...

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Dennis
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 08:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Ní bhia Éire 'na h-Éirinn

Ach ní thuigim go beacht céard atá á rá agat anseo.

Feicim go bhfuil seoladh agat ó United Kingdom Rapidswitch-ip, mar sin shíl mé ar dtús gur Sasanach thú. Ach nuair a chonaic mé an Rúisis, tháinig smaoineamh eile isteach i mo cheann: an tusa an Peadar a bhí ina chónaí i Moscó bliain ó shin?

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Dennis
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 08:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

ach uchtaíodh go gairid ina dhiaidh sin agus is Francach anois é.

Feicim gur fhág mé focal ar lár. Recte:

... ach uchtaíodh go gairid ina dhiaidh sin é agus is Francach anois é.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 09:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dennis, I am not Russian, and I don't know any Peadar in Moscow. But, contrary to received opinion, English people do occasionally study other languages, but, yes, it is true, rarely fluently. So my suggestion about the Russian equivalents may be ridiculous. Maybe Róman will tell me you can't say both of those in Russian, or something.



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