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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through June 29, 2007 » Grammer Rules Fada « Previous Next »

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Skii28
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Username: Skii28

Post Number: 39
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 09:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can you help please. I'm in the process of improving my grammer. I need to know when to put a fada in a word and when not to. What are the rules around fada's

Many thanks

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 1157
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 09:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The fada is used to show how to pronounce a word and is used with á é í ó ú

a changes it's sound to awwww
e ..................... Ay
i ..................... Eee
o ..................... Ohhhh
u ..................... uhhhh

The sound of the vowel with the fada is often lengthened.

Take S E A N for example

Séan - is prounced 'Shayne', it comes from the "To deny" verb
Seán - is prounced 'Shawn', it is an Irish name
Sean - is prounced 'Shan', it means old

In case 1 - the é gives the "ay" sound
2 - the á gives the "aw" sound
3 - there is no fada and no special sound.

(Message edited by Domhnall on June 22, 2007)

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 518
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 03:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Unless there's something I'm missing, you have to hear the word to decide whether it requires a fada. This presents another problem for persons who don't know the pronunciation before they see it spelled.

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1709
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 05:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I just want to add that á is pronounced like "aw" in Munster and Connemara. However in Donegal it is pronounced like a long open a (kinda "aa").

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 350
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 06:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Unless there's something I'm missing, you have to hear the word to decide whether it requires a fada. This presents another problem for persons who don't know the pronunciation before they see it spelled.

Ye-es, but how are these people coming across the word in the first place? Most of the time when I learn a new word it's either by hearing it spoken or seeing it written (in which case the fadas are right there staring at me.)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 839
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 03:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

á is pronounced like "aw" in Munster and Connemara.



I think you are wrong. First of all there is front-á and back-á in Munster (e.g. words 'breá' and 'fearr' have a front variety') and in Conamara as far I know there is only front variety and even [ae:] sound in certain positions. Let's reserve our judgements to the dialects we really know about.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1715
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 07:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ok, then correct all the persons who write that á is "aw", and not only me.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 844
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 10:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

then correct all the persons



Lughaidh, don't be childish. The fact that other people make mistakes is no good justification for multiplying non-sense.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Caoimhín
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Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 225
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 01:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Polite and ...

Caoimhín

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 131
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 02:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

á is aw in Conamara.
a without Fada is likely to be pronounced [æ:] or [a:] there.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on June 23, 2007)

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 03:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK. Let's analyze.

These "aw" things depend on which English you are coming from. From a British English perspective "aw" would imply a vowel as in "law". Now, I don't think it is 100% right to show an Irish á, but it gets you half way there. The other alternative would be "ah", which would imply a vowel as ini "father", but I think what is being discussed is that sometimes there is a vowel that is an ah-vowel as in father, but is further back, lower in the mouth than the British word "father", and so "aw" tries to show that. Actually the vowel being indicated is half-way between "ah" and "aw". However, it is not quite right to say that the Irish word lá is pronounced like the English word law. [In my experience, many French people have difficulty in pronouncing the English word law properly.]

By popular request: the International Phonetic Alphabet!!! Note these refer to southern British English only:

/ɔː/ is the vowel in "law" and "north"
/ɑː/ is the vowel in "father" and "start"

Now Munster (let's say Muskerry owing to the presence of a good book on that place's phonology):

/aː/ is the vowel in breá. This is the vowel Róman referred to as the front-variety. Note this is not the same as either of the Southern English vowels above. The vowel /a/ does not occur in Southern English (but I believe it is the vowel in the French word patte, and you would need to lengthen it to get to the long vowel in breá).
/ɑː/ is the vowel in lá. But I believe it is slightly different in quality from the English vowel that gets the same IPA transciption, and that is why some people would say it is a bit like /ɔː/.

In particular, it is necessary to point out that broad/slender in Irish do have an affect on the exact vowel quality. Some studies show that words like bán in some parts of Munster have a knock-on effect from the broad b causing the realization of /ɑː/ to get close to /ɒː/. /ɒ/ in IPA is the vowel in the Southern English word "lot", so you can see quite a great deal of rounding there. And according to some sources, /ɒː/ is the normal realization of this /ɑː/ in An Ring...

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 05:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Connemara 'á' sounds to my ears like the south British 'o' in 'rob', only it's longer. So, it's back, and possibly a bit rounded. The aw in law is a mid-vowel in the south British, and the Connemara 'á' is low.
The 'a' sounds like the German, Italian or Spanish... 'a', only when flanked by certain slender consonants it turns into a vowel similar to the South British 'a' in 'bad'.
Daithí

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1718
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 09:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

in Conamara as far I know there is only front variety

Má tá sin fíor, cad chuighe a bhfaightear [ɑː] mar fhuaimniú ar ’á’ in achan leabhar dá mbaineann le Gaeilg Chonamara? Go bhfios domh níl in [ɑː] ach guta cúil. Amhanc ar leabhar fán fhoghraíocht.
Maidir le fuaimníocht "breá" agus "fearr" i Mumhain, cad é mar a thrascríobhfá san IPA iad?

Lughaidh, don't be childish. The fact that other people make mistakes is no good justification for multiplying non-sense.

Sé ’n rud a bhí mé ’mhaíomh gur s’iomaí duine anseo a scríobhas go bhfuaimníthear "á" mar "aw" i gConamara agus i Mumhain agus gur mion-minic a léitear sin. Agus go dtí seo char úrt tú rud ar bith le duine ar bith fá dtaobh dó sin. Agus nuair a scríobh mé féin é, is ansin a cheartaigh tú ’n rud, fá mar nach mbíodh an locht ach orm féin amháin. ’Tuighe nár fhreagair tú ach mé, agus ’tuighe nár cheartaigh tú ’n rud roimhe sin, nuair a scríobh daoiní eile é? Cad é ’rinn mise ort?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 850
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 09:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

English "aw" is a long, open, rounded vowel denoted with inverted 'c' in IPA. As far as I have read dialect descriptions such sound is found in Scottisch and Ulster Irish as realisation of "ó" in certain positions. How this sound is related to Irish "á" is a mystery. Somehow I trust more phonetic monographies on dialects than laymen's personal perceptions. Anyway describing the sounds of one language in terms of other language sounds is at least naive.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1722
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 01:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's not my fault if almost nobody can read IPA. Have to try to give an approximative phonetic transcription since people often ask for one based on English spelling... If you know a better solution, I'd be glad to know it.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 524
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 01:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If you know a better solution, I'd be glad to know it.


Learn the IPA or designiate the region from which you are deriving your "sounds." If you tell a native of Appalachia that the "i" in Bible has the sound of the personal pronoun "I," he'll still pronounce it "Bobble," because that's the sound it has over ar. (Depending whether you're up ar or down har.)

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5714
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 02:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Nó fanacht glan ar cheisteanna foghraíochta, mar a nímse!


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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 852
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 02:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

It's not my fault if almost nobody can read IPA.



The question is completely different. I am not opposing English "pronunciation", I am opposing giving wrong pronunciation. If we know (and we know for sure) English "aw" and Irish "á" are denoted with different IPA signs, how can anyone claim that they are the same???

Again English "aw" is so called o-foscailte, sometimes spelled "ò" in Ulster texts as opposed to o-druidte which is spelled with "abh" or "ó".

Seo mar a chuirtear síos air de ghnáth i nGaedhilg na hAlban:
"ò" is like "a" in "hall"
"ó" is like "o" in "comb"
(Dieckhoff's Pronouncing Dictionary of Scottish Gaelic.)

Má amharcann tú ar an Collins Pocket Irish Dictionary, caithtear an sop seo i dtreo Ghaedhilg Uladh:
"ó" is like "o" in "more" (in Ulster, like "aw" in "law", when not flanked by a nasal consonant).

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/cruinneas/ofada.htm

(Message edited by róman on June 24, 2007)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 527
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 06:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

mar a nímse!



An bhfuil "a nímse" comhchosúil le "in éineacht?"

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1725
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 06:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Learn the IPA or designiate the region from which you are deriving your "sounds."

As a non-native speaker of English, I just use the symbols that are used by most contributors here when they want to transcribe Irish words in "phonetics".

Mar a nímse = mar a dhéanaimse. It's an Ulster form, an archaism, actually. I spell it "ghníom(sa)".

A Rómain, abair liom cad é mar a thrascríobhfása fuaim an "á" chúil (de réir Ghaeilg Chonamara nó na Mumhan) le córas litrithe ’n Bhéarla, le do thoil.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 528
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 07:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Buíochas a Lughaidh,

That explains why I couldn't find nímse in my dictionaries.

It hadn't occurred to me how pointless it is to use English spelling to help someone who might not speak English in the first place.

I guess we're back to "Learn the IPA."

Go mba seacht bhfearr a bheas tú bliain ó inniu.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 854
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 03:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

cad é mar a thrascríobhfása fuaim an "á" chúil



English "ar" ("far", "car"), or "a" in "glass, aunt, ask, father" as pronounced in Britain (but not in US!). Otherwise you are giving instructions for "o-foscailte" in Ulster, not "á"!

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1727
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mar sin thrascríobhfá "grá" mar "grar" ?
Is é an fhadhb atá ann go bhfuil eadar Bhreathnaigh agus Mheiriceánaigh ar na suíomhannaí a bhaineas leis a’ Ghaeilg. Réiteach eile?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 859
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Mar sin thrascríobhfá "grá" mar "grar" ?



Tá, go deimhin. Otherwise, how are you going to transcribe "crá" (to torture) and "cró" (cow-shed). Or you are saying that those words are pronounced the same "crAW"???

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1728
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 03:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm no specialist on how we should transcribe Irish in order that English speakers have an idea on how Irish has to be pronounced... I just use the symbols the other people (native English speakers) use... They know better than me which sounds are pronounced in English.

If I had to transcribe "crá", i'd write "craa" since i speak Donegal Irish...

But you have not answered this: "Is é an fhadhb atá ann go bhfuil eadar Bhreathnaigh agus Mheiriceánaigh ar na suíomhannaí a bhaineas leis a’ Ghaeilg. Réiteach eile?
"

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 863
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 03:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Is é an fhadhb atá ann go bhfuil eadar Bhreathnaigh agus Mheiriceánaigh ar na suíomhannaí a bhaineas leis a’ Ghaeilg.



This question has been answered milliúin times before - invest 15 min of your precious time and ní chaithfir bác leis na "ah", "oh", "ah", "aw" 7rl go deo!

p.s. Still IPA-hater have never offered how to transcribe "gh" or slender "r"

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1729
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 07:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fá mhilliúin? Cá háit?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 864
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 01:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Cá háit?



Foghlaim IPA!!!

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5726
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 06:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá níos mó IPA ag Lughaidh, ná agatsa, a mhic.
Tá nós gránna agat scairteadh ar aoinne nach gcloíonn go hiomlán le do thuairimí ar gach rud.

Nár thug tú faoin ndeara go dtugann Luaghaidh dhá leagan: IPA agus leagan "LPA" ar mhaithe leo siud nach bhfuil spéis acu ach i bhfocal nó dhó; níl siad chun an foghraíocht a bhreith leo i gceart pé scéal é, ach tiocfaidh siad gar go leor dó leis an miniú a thugann sé.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1730
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 12:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Foghlaim IPA!!!

[t̪ˠæː ˈλe͂ːw͂ ɔgˠəs ˈʃcɼiːw nˠə ˈhab´itʲɪjɪ ʃɪn ɔˈgˠɔm lɛʃ n̪ˠə ˈb´λiən̪t̪ˠi ˈɸʷɑd̪ˠə... ʃɛ ˈn̪ˠajbʷ nˠa wɪl ʃi eɟən ˈχʌdʲ ɪsˠ ˈmoː d̪ˠɔ n̪ˠə ˈd̪ˠɨːɲi ɛɾ ˈɣɾɪm´ ə ˈd̪ˠɔ͂ːn... ɔˈgˠəsˠ nˠa ˈm´iˑənˠ lɔːɸʷə ʃɪn ən̪ˠ ˈoːɾiar̥t̪ˠ ə ˈɣoːlˠəm´... d̪ˠɑɾ lat̪ˠ, gˠə dʲe mʷɑɼ ɪs ɸ´eːdʲɪj t̪ˠoːɼtʲ ɛɾ n̪ˠə d̪ˠɨːɲi ʃɪnɪ n̪ˠoːɾiar̥t̪ˠ ə ɣoːlˠəm´] ?

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 868
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 04:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní fheadar-sa cad 'na thaobh go bhfuil fearg ort anois? Do bhí freagra uait, ná raibh? Cad tá uait asam mar sin?

(Message edited by Róman on June 26, 2007)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 869
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 04:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Pé scéal é, cad é "dhólaim" id théacs?

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1736
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 08:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl fearg orm.
[ɣoːlˠəm´] = a dh’fhoghlaim

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 873
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 02:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Á, tuigim anois. Agus cad 'na thaobh "a dh'fhoghlaim" i n-áit "a fhoghlaim"?

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Peadar (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 04:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In Ulster, a becomes a dh' when the verbal noun begins with a vowel or fh + vowel.



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