'Zealots' risk own goal with political football
(Roy Garland, Irish News)
My interest in Gaelic language goes back a long way and I have discovered that a number of fellow unionists are Irish speakers with varying capacities.
Most, but not all, hail from the Irish Republic where Gaelic is defined as the first official language even though Irish people as a rule speak English.
The predominant reaction among my unionist friends is resentment at the way Irish is often used to foster a political agenda. They feel this insults the language and are angry and frustrated at this.
One formerly fluent Irish speaker who loved the language while in the south now resents it being used as a political football in the north.
Some people from the nationalist tradition agree that the language should only be pursued by enthusiasts rather than foisted on the whole community.
Another feels that if a person does not speak Irish they are regarded as lesser Irish persons in some circles. He has nothing but contempt for those who, in his view, have used Irish Gaelic to denigrate political opponents and so have exposed the language to ridicule. The idea of an Irish Language Act for Northern Ireland is also seen as potentially divisive particularly with the presence of many ethnic minorities here.
It is believed that an element of compulsion is intended and that large amounts of money are to be expended on a possibly fruitless attempt to stem the tide against the long-term decline in the use of such languages.
Another unionist and fluent Irish speaker said that even in the border counties the language has sometimes been used as a "political stick" to beat Protestants with. He also resented the imposition of an official standardised version dominated by Kerry and Connemara Gaelic that largely excluded Ulster Irish speakers.
Yet he adds that Ulster was home to the oldest and longest surviving version of the language.
Another said that the pristine tongue of our ancestors is long gone and that the increasing use "Long Kesh Irish" leaves many enthusiasts unhappy.
Yet the language skills of Bairbre de Brun are respected and one unionist recalled great pleasure on listening to the 'wonderful Donegal Irish' of Brid Rogers.
He contrasted this with the Irish spoken by some politicians whose ability is limited and suggests they should either abandon Gaelic completely or urgently improve their capacity in it.
There is much hypocrisy about the language in the Republic where, although most people speak English with an Irish accent, Irish is defined as the first official language.
Much time and effort and millions of euro have been devoted to Irish in schools resulting usually in a smattering of Gaelic which is quickly lost.
The Irish Constitution was written in English and translated into Irish but the Irish version is legally binding in any dispute. This is surely nonsense and offensive to those for whom Gaelic remains a largely alien language. Eamon DeValera was apparently told by Archbishop McQuaid to drop compulsory Irish because parents spoke English to their children at home but he continued the "experiment".
Some Irish remains compulsory in southern Irish schools and is essential for entry into many employments but the old "fail Irish, fail all" is gone and it is increasingly realised that compulsory Gaelic doesn't work.
One nationalist said he now detests Irish because he was compelled to learn it at a time when "language zealots" even gave him an Irish name. To make matters worse other family members were given different and disputed translations of the same surname.
The effect of associating Gaelic with Irish separatism may also have had a detrimental effect on the preservation of the Irish language. It is argued for example, that Wales and possibly Scotland inside the Union have been more successful in preserving Gaelic than has the independent Irish Republic.
The vast majority of unionists, including most DUP members, would not wish to restrict anyone's desire to learn Irish.
Rather, like many nationalists, they would prefer to see interested people encouraged to take up the language on a voluntary basis.
It is noteworthy that in 1970, Ian Paisley's Protestant Telegraph welcomed the launch of Oidhreacht na hireann the only Orange Lodge to have its name emblazoned in Irish as well as English on its banner.
The ancient Irish language must be preserved because it is part of the heritage of these islands but we must also learn from the experience in the Republic where compulsion has failed.
June 19, 2007

I think Irish should be something that everyone can learn, unionist or nationalist or newcomers.

I think that the problem with Irish in the Republic is not that its compulsery but that it isn't taught effectively, as I and countless others have said in the past. The coriculum isn't accessable and hands on enough for students to really learn the language because there isn't enough emphasis put on conversation and skills of that nature that students could actually use in daily life if they wanted to. I think the coriculum is slowly getting better but it still has a ways to go.

Just because students don't like something doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it. I hated maths but I had to do it, even though I'll never use algebra or geometry. I still think it is good to learn such things because school is supposed to prepare you for whatever you may choose to persue in life and no doubt some students will definitely be using those skills later.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Pile of rubbish - this letter.

All successful attempts at reviving threatened language have involved elements of coercion because people are lazy by their nature and without inducement in the form of stick-and-carrot nothing can ever be done.

Who was responsible for the decline and almost death of our language? Who brought in the penal laws and all the rest?

It because Gaeilge is our NATIONAL language that is our 1st offical language "Ós í an Ghaeilge and teanga náisiúnta is í an príomhtheanga oifigiúil í"

As Nationalists were oppressed, subject to collusion and discrmination they worked to built something which they could call their own. An Ghaeilge gave them a sense of being. An Ghaeilge can also give unionists a sense of belonging to Ireland. They are "angry and frustrated" at the political use of irish.. well they only have themselves to blame.

Paisley&Dup, Lady Sylvia Herman&UUP both abuse the language. Their attempts to oppress the irish language schools, lá and their continued vehement objection to an Irish language act (which only ensure's language equality on the basis on rights) are testiment to who is really doing the language damage.
"The vast majority of unionists, including most DUP members, would not wish to restrict anyone's desire to learn Irish." Bull. They want the language dead. I live in South Belfast, i see it and i hear it and i live it.

In relation to the Republic&Gaeilge it's the same old laissez-faire attitude which does no good. Educational change not removing compulsion is the answer.

"This is surely nonsense and offensive to those for whom Gaelic remains a largely alien language."
Irish State. Irish language. Irish constitution. If people don't like it then go to England where they can enjoy the country of England. The english language and the British monarchy.

“Another said that the pristine tongue of our ancestors is long gone and that the increasing use "Long Kesh Irish" leaves many enthusiasts unhappy”

Let me make a point here about Maológ Ó Ruirc’s "Ar Thóir Gramadach Nua". Having waded thru at times nonsense, was finally rewarded with passages in which he hit the nail on the head time after time. About what? The fact that Irish has been described on the Latin model which it is not suitable for; the fact that verb constraints on usage are never taught (example: there is a big and non interchangable difference between persuade and believe in "he persuaded a doctor to examine his wife" vs. "he believed a doctor to examine his wife"). In Irish, when one gets a verb book, all it does is like conjugations, so that the ‘semantic space’ between words is collapsed -it is impossible to try to emulate natives. It’s not hard to imagine someone conjugating ‘fead’ thinking it is a normal verb.


“Yet he adds that Ulster was home to the oldest and longest surviving version of the language.”

What is meant by this?


“The effect of associating Gaelic with Irish separatism may also have had a detrimental effect on the preservation of the Irish language. It is argued for example, that Wales and possibly Scotland inside the Union have been more successful in preserving Gaelic than has the independent Irish Republic.”

We all know the conditions which led to loss of Irish –Irish separatism from British rule is not one of them. Wales does not have Gaelic; Scots Gaelic is not in a great way; Welsh is over trumpeted and not out of the water yet.


“There isn't enough emphasis put on conversation and skills of that nature”

I would argue that there is too much. Think about this –why do people from Gaelscoileachta speak some sort of pidgin? That magazine that was on-line had stuff like ‘fuair sé amach’ for ‘he found out’. I was on a train yesterday and it read ‘tabhair suas an suíocháin seo má tá aostaigh nó míchumasach etc’. So if some poor unfortunate came in, I’d have to rip up the seat and hand to to some lad on the roof?


“It because Gaeilge is our NATIONAL language that is our 1st offical language”

This cannot be the case as structurally, English is the native and national language of Ireland. Arguing to the contrary is not going to change this.

Anyway, at this stage in history there is such a great homogeny across Ireland, that talk of ‘cultural difference’ is misleading. Identity politics based on certain traditions, or organisations, or access to wealth and power are where the real differences lie.

Ironically, many Unionists are more nationalistic without knowing it, as they involve themselves in community affairs, thru community cultural and sporting events. (Obviously some of the ‘cultural events’ are not always so positive!) From my perspective, nationalists in the north are becoming more like unionists in this manner, while in the south, community as dissolved and means whatever postcode you live in, a symbol/ a cypher to help divisive class relations along

Bearn,

Ná fag do chuid tuairimí anseo - cuir ar aghaidh é chuig an Irish News agus mo dhuine Roy.

Mo thuairimí? So, cén fáth a chuir tú an píosa thuas? Na hionsaigh ágh, agus ní bhfaighidh tú é

Irish is open to all peoples.
It's a language. Sin é.

anyway, if Irish is used againt Unionists, they should learn it better. If someone says you are less Irish for not having irish, learn it better than them. It will be worth it to see the 'náire' on their face

"This cannot be the case as structurally, English is the native and national language of Ireland. Arguing to the contrary is not going to change this."

I beg to differ. English is Ireland's vernacular. End of.

Gaeilge áfach.. Well Irish is the only language unique to Ireland. It has been spoken here for thousands of years and continues to be. It's one of the few things of our own no matter how many people speak it. Because of it's relevance&exclusivity to Ireland it is the first offical language.

Why are people surprised that the Ulster Protestants don't feel any connection to the Irish language? It was not primarily the language of their ancestors. Their ancestors spoke a Scottish form of English. Irish was the language of the conquered Catholics. The Unionists are asserting their identity by not speaking Irish just as the Nationalists are trying to reclaim their historical identity by the use of Irish.
This American style multicultural inclusiveness is just wrongheaded in the European context. It seems impossible to even get the descendants of the Irish speakers to use the language let alone Ulster Scots and the newer immigrants. By the way, I am able to speak Irish, but English seems to be the way to get the message out. There, someone needed to state the obvious.

"I beg to differ. English is Ireland's vernacular. End of. "

That is why tend the country is full of native Irish speakers, the reason you learned Irish as your first language, and the reason why I dont have to learn to speak Irish, already been a native myself.

Ireland's venacular is English. To think it was Irish is emotionally and logically dishonest.

And there is no point posting messages in Irish to prove a point. Using a foreign language like Irish without restraint as soon as you can form sentances means that it will be polluted with English. It is savage, savage hypocracy to blame the English for removing the ancestral tongue, and then to carry on a form of post colonialism by speaking a pidgin full of English syntax, sounds, and idiom. That underlies how far one has been colonised to the point of prolonging it. A good example of irony is that if Ireland ever needed cannon fodder, it would be the Premiership following hordes who would be dying under an tricolour.

Unionists have no part in this discussion as Irish is so marginal a language, the level of group analysis is on the level of individual people or families. To talk about Irish and 800,000 people in the North is daft. I dont see smaller groups of the decendants of the Gael speaking it -no new villages, even though as I ahve pointed out, the ownership of holiday homes in the Gaeltacht by so-called Gaelgeoirí is enough to build a town. Those same 'homes' impoverish real natives and accelorate the languages demise. I know its trendy to say that 'we should look beyond the Gaeltacht' in the 21st century but that is crap because only natives provide the template. A revival must understand the native tongue before going beyond the old area (which it must do as the Gaeltacht is nearly finished).

Recently a 5000 acre old lodge and land came up for sale in Tipp (15mil). How come all these rich middle class speakers who view the language as the core of their identity did not club together and buy it? Why dont they build a new Gaeltacht? They wont as 'identity' is a thing one wears on ones sleve, before taking it off when you have real business to attend to (like destroying Tara). Nationalism has been reduced to a part time symbolic hobby.

Alun,

With respect, I think you have slightly missed the point as many do. Whilst many 'Protestants' may well be descendant from Gaelic speakers which must be recongised, the drive for an Irish Language Act in the North is simply not in reality concerned with their community - that is their choice and more power to them.

The fact is that the drive for an Act concerns Irish speakers and their immediate supporters as a minority group.

The aim of the Act is not to encourage people to compell anyone speak Irish or even to encourage them to do so. It is about the rights of Irish Speakers.

Unionists oppose people's right to speak Irish outside of the confines of their homes, in a public context, in work etc., the right to have a Gaelic name, Irish Medium Education, legitimacy of the original Gaelic form of place-names, Irish medium television.

I don't agree with them but like every Irish speaker I know or have ever met I would never support pushing the language on them even though they would shamelessly push theirs on me.

Bearn,

Tá grúpaí ag obair chun Gaeltachta úra a bhunú ar fud na tíre. Coiméad ar an spás seo mar a déarfá.

Ar scór ar bith, tá an Irish News lán litreacha ag gearáin fán alt úd.

I may take issue with the "many Protestants" who descend from Gaelic speakers, from what I know the majority came from English speaking lowland areas of Scotland, not to mention the Anglophone South Ulster English colonists. Could you furnish some backup for your statement? Why would the English plant fellow Gaels in Ulster? Otherwise, I agree with your points.

Alun,

With pleasure, these are the surnames of some prominant Unionist politicians.

ALLISTER / Mac Alasdair, McCausland / Mac Auslainn, McNarry / Mac Náraigh, Shannon / Ó Seanáin, Campbell / Caimbéal etc. etc.

I think Irish should be taught, it's the only way to keep it alive. I also think Ireland should go to speaking on Irish and drop English. It is part of their culture.

Gaelgannaire,
So they should take up Gaidhlig. I was inquiring about the historical use of a Celtic language among the settlers not their surnames. That's an evasion not an answer.

Alun,

1. The fact that that these people mentioned all have patronimic surnames is a clear indication that these people had a least one male Gaelic speaking ancestor.

2. Many 'settlers' came from Galloway which was mainly Gaelic speaking until circa 1700. It is highly likely that pockets existed after them. See some of Michael Newtons stuff, The Handbook (or companion, cant remember) of Gaelic Scotland and The Place-Names of Galloway. Galloway itself comes from the Gaelic Gallghaedhalaibh i.e land of the mixed Gall / Gaels.

3. In one of the last Gaeltachts in East Ulster, Rathlin Island, about 1/3 of the people are Protestants, yet were as likely to speak Irish as their Catholic neighbours.

4. There are many records of Presbyterian ministers preaching in Irish to their flocks even in the 19th Century.

I am not an expert on this field but I would suggest if are genuinely interest in this field you should contact Iontaobhas Ultach who will in turn point you in the right direction.

Again, I must stress that I am not asserting that people are Gaels who do not wish to be, merely that Gaelic surnames are patronimic and indicate a Gaelic ancestor, Protestant people in Ulster today descride themselves with a plethera of descriptions but outwith a tiny minority, not as Gaels.

Good luck with your enquires.

Rathlin Island Gaelic was a dialect just between Irish and Scottish Gaelic, but closer to Scottish Gaelic. I studied it some years ago, when I did a dissertation about Ulster Irish and Scottish Gaelic. Most Rathlin people were Scottish. Now I think there's only one speaker of Rathlin Gaelic left, quite sadly. The dialect has been described in a book, but right now I don't remember the name of the author.

Lughaidh,

Chan aontaim leat fá Reachraidh, is Éireannaigh iad muintir an oileáin úd agus cha bheadh siad leath-shásta leis an lipéid 'Albannach' cé go bhfuil baint nach beag ag an oileán le Alba.

Ar an chanúint, bheinn féin ag aontú leis na tuairimí ar an chanúint léirithe in alt úr sa 'Glynns'.

Go bunúsach, is canúint Éireannach Gaeilge Reachraidh de bhrí go bhfuil Reachraidh in Éirinn, cé gur cosúla le Gaeilge na hAlbain na mar a bheadh Gaeilge Thír Chonaill, is canúint Ultach í go bunúsach.

Má deir muid, gur Gaeilge na hAlbain atá i nGaeilg Reachraidh, cá stopfaidh muinn? Glinntí Aontroma? Doire? Oirialla fiú. Creidtear go forleathan go raibh O'Rahilly den bharúil gurb ionann Gaeilg Uladh ar fad le Gaeilg na hAlbain agus tá scolairí ann inniu a mheasann gurb ionann an scoilt idir cha agus ní agus an scoilt idir dhá chinéal Ghaeilge (i.e. Gaeilge an Iarthar v. Gaeilge an Oirthear).

Mar Ultach, measaim gurb iad an Ghaeilge ar fad a labhraitear is a labhríodh in Ultaibh agus Gaeilg Uladh, canúintí nas 'albannaí' ná mo chanúint Ghallda fhéin.

Ádh mór

Chan aontaim leat fá Reachraidh, is Éireannaigh iad muintir an oileáin úd

De shliocht Albanach. B’Albanaigh a muintir. Nó ní bheadh an méid sin tionchair Albanaigh ar a nGaeilg.

Go bunúsach, is canúint Éireannach Gaeilge Reachraidh de bhrí go bhfuil Reachraidh in Éirinn, cé gur cosúla le Gaeilge na hAlbain na mar a bheadh Gaeilge Thír Chonaill, is canúint Ultach í go bunúsach.

Ní mise an chéad duine a deireas gur canúint Albanach canúint Reachlainne. Léigh mé in alt nó i leabhar é. Agus má léann tú an leabhar fá dtaobh do Ghaeilg Reachlainne, tchífidh tú go bhfuil sé fíor. Is cosúla Gaeilg Reachlainne le Gaeilg na hAlban ná le Gaeilg na hÉireann.

Más fuide a théid tú soir in Éirinn, más mó atá tionchar Albanach ar an Ghaeilg. Agus tá tionchar trom Albanach ar Ghaeilg na nGlinntí agus go háiríd ar Ghaeilg Reachlainne. Deirfinn féin gur canúint Albanach le tionchar Éireannach atá i nGaeilg Reachlainne.

Dá mbeadh Reachlainn in Albain, deirfí gan fadhb ar bith gur Gaeilg Albanach atá ann. Níl ach aon chúis amháin le ráidht gur Gaeilg Éireannach atá ann: is cuid d’Éirinn í Reachlainn. Sin a’ méid.

Aontaim leat, a Lughaidh. Irish of Rathlinn is in essence the same as Scottish of Islay. Period.

Lughaidh,

Tá an cheist agam ort. Conas a fhuaimnaítear "f" i "chífidh" i nUltaibh? mar [f] nó [h]? agus na focail de leithéid de "dóighfidh", "suighfidh"? le [f] nó [h] nó b'fhéidir [x]??

Lughaidh,

Maith thú, chan aontaim leat ach maith thú.

Is í Gaeilge Reachlann ceann de na hábhair is mó spéise agam agus tá mé ag dul dó le bliantaí agus ní dóigh liom go bhfuil ábhar ón oileán amuigh ansin nár scrúdaigh mé.

Caithfidh mé a rá fosta nach aontaim leat fá 'thionchar trom Albannach' ar Ghaeilge Aontroma, silim go raibh an chanúint úd san áit díreach a bheifeá ag súil leis sa 'continuam' teanga.

Ádh mór

Romáin,

Léigh 'The Gaelic of Islay' le Seumas Grannd.

Tchfídh tú nach bhfuil sin fíor.

Cé go bhfuil an-cosúlachtaí eadarthú bheadh sé níos easca do dhuine as Reachraidh Gaeilge Thír Chonaill a thuigbheáil ná Gaeilge Reachraidh ach ná glac uaimse é.

B'shin an rud a dúirt Frank Craig, an cainteoir deireannach a raibh cónaí air san oileán (Feach, Some Phrases of Rathlin Irish, in The Glynns (2007).

Gaeilge Árainn (na hAlbain) (ach ar ndóigh bheadh daoine san Albain ag rá go bhfuil sí lán le Gaeilge na hÉireann)an chanúint ab chosúla le Gaeilge Reachraidh ach ba chosúla Gaeilge Reachraidh le Gaeilge Aontroma, b'ionann an bheirt de réir Nils Holmer, duine de teangeolaithe is fearr dár scrúdaigh Gaeilge riamh, ba bheag an difear idir Gaeilge Aontroma agus Gaeilge Dhoire agus mar sin de.

Ádh mór ort

quote:

Gaeilge Árainn

Ok, so I mixed up. Obviously it is not Islay but Arann then. Sorry, for misinformation on my part.

A Romáin, chan ionann Gaeilge Reachraidh agus Gaeilge Íle - canúintí den teanga chéanna cinnte (Gaeilge/Gáidhlig/Gaolann, cibé ainm ba mhaith leat a thabhairt uirthi) ach níl siad díreach mar an gcéanna.

Fuaimnítear an 'f' san fhocal ‘tchífidh’.

Agus a Lughaidh, is é, Gaeilge de chuid na hÉireann í Gaeilge Reachraidh cionn is gur oileán Éireannach é.

Aontaím go hiomlán le Gaelgannáire maidir leis an ‘language continuum’ - caithfear amharc ar shraith na gcanúintí in ionad a rá gur Gaeilge Albanach atá ar an oileán ar an ábhar go bhfuil cosúlachtaí ann le canúintí na hAlba.

Ok, so I was misled by Gaelgannaire. Islay is the dialect that I meant.

Look at this link and decide for yourself:

http://www.seanchas-ile.net/archive/word_list_english.pdf

My favorite:

Gun robh math agad (guess for which expression) instead of customary "tapadh leat"

(Message edited by róman on June 23, 2007)

Tá an cheist agam ort. Conas a fhuaimnaítear "f" i "chífidh" i nUltaibh? mar [f] nó [h]?

Braitheann sin ar a’ mhionchanúint. Ar feadh m’eolais, ins an bhriathar "(t)chífidh", is [ɸ´] a chluintear don chuid is mó in Ultaibh, ach chuala mé daoiní i nGaoth Dobhair a d’fhuaimnigh [h] ansin: [ˈtʃihə t̪ˠu].
Le fírinne, níl ’s agam dá laghad cad chuighe a bhfaightear an fuaimniú [ɸ´] ins an bhriathar sin amháin, agus chan ins na briathra eile ! Ins na briathra eile go léir cluintear [h]. Má tá fhios nó hipitéis ag duine ar bith...

agus na focail de leithéid de "dóighfidh", "suighfidh"? le [f] nó [h] nó b'fhéidir [x]??

[ç] nó [h] atá ann, de réir a bhfuil scríofa in An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Uladh (lch. 22). Ach cluintear [ɸ´] i dTeileann.

Chan amháin go gcuintear an ‘f‘ i dTeileann, a Lughaidh, ach sna Rosa chomh maith in amannaí.

Agus i gcanúintí in Oirthear Uladh fostaí.

quote:

gcanúintí in Oirthear Uladh fostaí

Ana-shuimiúil. The same pronunciation is in Cléire and Bantry. So maybe it is the historical usage.