mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through June 18, 2007 » Do ALL pronouns go to the end? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1675
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 11:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is it okay to say the following:

Chuir sé ag smaoineamh mé.
Chonaic sé sa ghairdín thú.
Déanfaidh mé amárach é.
Chonaic sé ag súgradh muid. (He saw us playing).
Chuir sé ag smaoineamh sibh.
Diúltaíodh inné iad.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1697
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 12:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's ok for Donegal word-order, however I'm not sure the object pronouns always go at the end of a sentence in the other dialects, especially in Munster. Wait for Róman’s answer...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 29
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 02:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

FnamB,
may I suggest you purchase or borrow Modern Irish, it has many pages on variations in the basic VSO pattern. Much of it, is of course, CF Irish, but does mention like Lughaidh says, that right movements of the pronoun is more prevalient in Ulster. It gives examples of both subject and object right movement:

Conemara variences:

Fágadh é ina loighe ar an talamh taobh thiar den scioból aréir
Fágadh ina loighe é ar an talamh taobh thiar den scioból aréir
Fágadh ina loighe ar an talamh é taobh thiar den scioból aréir
Fágadh ina loighe ar an talamh taobh thiar den scioból é aréir
Fágadh ina loighe ar an talamh taobh thiar den scioból aréir é

An example of right movement of subject in Munser (in narrative sytles of speech) not seen often in other dialects:

Tagann chugham isteach an sagart paróiste
Do bhí acu tamal math dhon uíle
...agus tháinig faoina mbráid le léamh úrscéal Sheáin Óig
...ghluais chugam aníos transa an ghleanna ceol píbe

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Scathach
Member
Username: Scathach

Post Number: 93
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 03:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Chuir sé ag smaoineamh mé.
Chonaic sé sa ghairdín thú.
Déanfaidh mé amárach é.
Chonaic sé ag súgradh muid. (He saw us playing).
Chuir sé ag smaoineamh sibh.
Diúltaíodh inné iad."


Maybe this helps, or not, I was brought up with Munster Irish and am married to someone with Conamara Irish, for longer than I spoke Munster Irish.
Tá súil agam go bhfuil ciall dá laghad ag baint leis an méid atá scríofa agam i mBéarla.

Ar aon nós,

Chuir sé mé ag smaoineamh.
Chonaic mé thú sa ghairdín.
Déanfaidh mé amárach é.
Chonaic sé muid ag súgradh.
Chuir sé sibh ag smaoineamh.
Diúltaíodh iad inné.

Agus ní féidir liom "bhíos" a ligint uaim ar chor ar bith!! Agus nuair a táim ar buille " chonnacthas". Imíonn rith focal orm.
Nach ait é sin?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1676
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 03:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Fágadh é ina loighe ar an talamh taobh thiar den scioból aréir
Fágadh ina loighe é ar an talamh taobh thiar den scioból aréir
Fágadh ina loighe ar an talamh é taobh thiar den scioból aréir
Fágadh ina loighe ar an talamh taobh thiar den scioból é aréir
Fágadh ina loighe ar an talamh taobh thiar den scioból aréir é

I must say I prefer this one:

Fágadh ina loighe ar an talamh é taobh thiar den scioból aréir.

One thing I wanted to ask about is the pronoun "sinn". How is it pronounced? It is pronounced similarly to "sin"? If so, does it not cause confusion? Do many people use "sinn" instead of "muid"?

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 829
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 03:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Fhir na mbróg,

I am not the biggest expert, but as far as I am concerned time adverb is rather last in Munster. So

"Déanfaidh mé amárach é" instantly becomes "Déanfad é amáireach". I think you are mixing up with the law that direct pronoun (é, í, iad) is always behind indirect (dom, duit etc) - Tabhair dhom (pronounced "trom") é!

"muid" is not used in Munster at all. So if someone needs "sinn" then "sinn" is said. However, there not so many situation where that is needed - direct pronoun ("us") or after copula. There are no conjugated foirm scartha with "sinn", neither in present nor in past tense. In Ciarraí and Cléire it is pronounced as plain "sin", in Rinn and Múscraí as if spelled "sing" so no confusion arised.

Pé scéal é, this sentence "Chonaic sé ag súgradh muid." sounds unusual to me. Isn't "Chonaic sé agus sinn ag imirt" more frequent?

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 30
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 04:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Further north (Erris at least -dialect studies dont mention its sound, maybe due to muid prevailaence), the demonstrative 'sin' is [s'in] and [s'iN'] , but since sin can conjugate or is at least seen in contexts that were once conjugatable, its function is not confused. Some use of prepositons might in isolation coupled with not making a distinction between weak and strong l might lead to confusion, theoritically. See for sin: aige sin/at that; air sin/upon that vs ag sinn and ar sinn but mostly the preposition is conjugated anyway

""Chonaic sé ag súgradh muid.""

That would sound like "xonaik se a' súgramuid" which since it is not a noun, makes it like a verb, and for what its worth sounds odd to my sense of grammar too (not that that is too refined...)

WOuld I be right in saying that the disjuctive form is more often moved to the right so, thú, é, í, iad more so than unchanged mé, muid and sinn?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5651
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 04:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cloisim cleas Mhaigh Eo ag rá "sinn" san áit a bhíonn "muid" ag daoine eile, agus iad ag caint ar RnaG.

Bíonn "sinn" ag na deirfiúracha Ní Chiaráin i gcónaí chomh maith.



Bíonn paistí ag spraoi nó ag súgradh; imrítear cluichí cosúil le peil. (Ach níl an deighilt chomh soiléir sin).

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1698
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 08:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Baintear feidhm as "sinn" do rogha ar "muid" ins na Cruacha Gorma i dTír Chonaill fosta ("an Ghaeltacht Láir").

Tá ’n ceart aige Aonghas. Tá duifear sa chéill eadar "súgradh" agus "imirt". Nuair a imreas tú, tá cluiche ann, le rialacha. Nuair a bíos tú ’súgradh, ní bhíonn rialacha, ghníonn tú achan rud is mian leat.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 08:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Fhir na mbróg,
Those sentences are syntactically perfect. You could say "chuir sé mé ag smaoineamh" etc. but that is not how native speakers say it, at least not in Connemara.
A Rómain, I'm not sure about "Chonaic sé agus sinn ag imirt" for "Chonaic sé ag súgradh muid." I'm no expert in the Munster dialect, but I think you would have to have something like "Chonaic sé sinn ag imirt."



©Daltaí na Gaeilge