I just noticed that one might have a problem with sounding archaic if one were to use the prepostional/dative case in examples like here: cos, mo chos, le mo chois (singular), le mo choisibh (plural). One would have to use the dative pl morpheme, or hold to the Caighdeán rule that you can keep it in the null sing with the possessive 'buffering' the noun from the preposition.

I suppose in real langugae there is always other constructions or an adjective (mo chos dhearg/mo chois dhearg [dhirg possible?] vs mo chois dearga) to make it less ambigous that are used on the fly, so such grammar problems are circumvented

I forgot, the feet have cosa as the plural, so it not so much of an issue...

quote:

le mo chois

Go bhfios dom, tá an ceann so i gcaighdeán!.

quote:

le mo choisibh (plural)

Le mo chosaibh, nó lem chosaibh, más é do thoil é!

Seachain:

le mo chois	along with me
le mo cos	with my foot

cos [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
(cois in abairtí áirithe) ceann de na géaga a úsáidtear chun siúil; aon ní cosúil leis seo (cos boird, cos pota); clúdach coise (cos treabhsair); lámh, feac, sáfach (cos spáide, cos scine, cos casúir, cos fuipe); an chuid íochtarach (cos leapa).


ar cois (ar siúl, ar bun (tá rud éigin ar cois)).
cois (taobh le (cois na habhann)).
cos ar bolg (leatrom, éagóir, foréigean).
le cois (in éineacht le (tar le mo chois; cúpla punt le cois)).

So, dative (cois) is used only in certain phrases? Does this apply to other similar words too? E.g. láimh, bróig, cluais...

Oops

le mo chos

with my foot

quote:

So, dative (cois) is used only in certain phrases?

Your question is meaningless because now I bound to ask in return - used where?

In Conamara there is no such word as "cos" - there is only "cois" in both nominative and dative. In Munster and Ulster distinction 'cos' vs 'cois' is clear-cut.

So if CO claims that 'cois' is used "in abairtí áirithe" I am not quite clear whose "abairtí áirithe" they represent? Of caighdeán creators?

quote:

So if CO claims that 'cois' is used "in abairtí áirithe"

Féach na samplaí. Abairtí seargtha. Fch freisin "N'fheadar" atá caighdeánach, cé go bhfui lna foirmeacha eile atá fós beo i gCorca Dhuibhne imithe as an gcaint gach áit lasmuigh den Mumhan.

Aonghus,

word "abairt" is derived from verb "abair". So my question is simple - who speaks the way dictionary describes? Or it describes the speech of learners who got their habits from the same dictionary? Grammarians should describe the language, not create it!

Róman, a dhuine uasail, léigh an rud a scríobh mé, maith an fear.

le cois
Seán Ó Dálaigh: Timcheall Chinn Sléibhe

1 - 2 as 5: abairt 1326, ag toiseacht ar lch 114, líne 31

Bhí daoine ó Dhún Chaoin le n-a gcois.


le cois
Pádraig Ua Maoileoin: Na hAird Ó Thuaidh

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 1102, ag toiseacht ar lch 85, líne 2

Le cois m'athar a théinnse ag bothántaíocht gach aon oíche
siar don Chom.


le cois
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

1 - 2 as 10: abairt 250, ag toiseacht ar lch 14, líne 19

“Is mairg gan rud beag córach linn le cois an t-srotha,”
arsa Labhras Óg.


le cois
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

3 - 4 as 10: abairt 653, ag toiseacht ar lch 35, líne 9

Chan ar dhóigh amháin a tháinig áthrach air, nó le cois
fóghluim Gaedhilg a léigheamh, bhí sé ag cur suime i
leabharthaí Béarla agus i léigheann.


le cois
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

5 - 6 as 10: abairt 1011, ag toiseacht ar lch 51, líne 26

Níl sé Críostamhail ins an chead chás dó, le cois nach
bhfuil sé dlígheamhail taobh istuigh do dhúithche an
Ríogh.”


le cois
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

7 - 8 as 10: abairt 1115, ag toiseacht ar lch 57, líne 14

“Le cois, mar dubhairt mé, gur dóigh nach mbíonn an-morán
ama go rabh áit fa réir ar an pháipear.”


le cois
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 816, ag toiseacht ar lch 67, líne 6

“'Rabh a dhath eile agaibh le cois na gcrasóg?” ars an t-
seanbhean.


le cois
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Cioth is Dealán

1 - 2 as 6: abairt 846, ag toiseacht ar lch 38, líne 5

Tá áit suidhe aige nach gcastar a leithéid ort ach go h-
annamh, le cois gur fear breágh é féin.”


le cois
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Thiar i dTír Chonaill

1 - 2 as 4: abairt 1979, ag toiseacht ar lch 96, líne 31

Le cois a bheith fiúntach dathamhail bhí deánamh galánta
uirthí.


le cois
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Thiar i dTír Chonaill

3 - 4 as 4: abairt 3561, ag toiseacht ar lch 171, líne 18

Léigh mé ‘Foras Feasa’ agus ‘Annala Ríoghacht Éireann’
agus ‘A' Seanchus Mór’ agus ‘A' Táin,’ le cois an méid
filidheacht a rinneadh ó chuaidh Cúchulainn un sleanntrach
go dtáinig Humbert go Cill Eala.


le cos
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 506, ag toiseacht ar lch 27, líne 20

Thoisigh an gasúr a ghearradh stríocach ar an urlár le cos
píopa cailce.


le cos
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Cioth is Dealán

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 738, ag toiseacht ar lch 33, líne 25

“Ar ndóighe,” deireadh Nábla, “tá sí comh buidhe le cos
lach', agus annsin í comh ciotach sna pluca le sean-
mhnaoi.


le cos
Seosamh 'ac Grianna: Muinntir an Oileáin

1 - 2 as 4: abairt 564, ag toiseacht ar lch 39, líne 20

“Suidhighidh anonn 'n a' clúdadh,” ar seisean le beirt
pháistí a bhí ag déanamh stríocach ar leic na teineadh le
cos píopa.


le cos
Seaghán 'ac Meanman: Fear Siubhail

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 1175, ag toiseacht ar lch 82, líne 24

Annsin dhóirt sé anuas ar an iomlán trí lán stilleadh
d'uisge the, a's ar feadh ceathramhadh uaire mheasg sé an
bhraichlís le cos sluaiste.


le cos
Seaghán 'ac Meanman: Rácáil agus Scuabadh

1 - 2 as 2: abairt 1102, ag toiseacht ar lch 51, líne 23

Níor fhág aon duine againne an stáisean gur scríobh sé a
ainim ar engine an traen le cos phíopa!

What are you trying to prove? That there is such expression "le cois"?! I know it very well. But if you read what I said - then you would notice that outside of this expressions "cois" is also used for any casual dative of "cos" in ALL Irish dialects. Therefore statement that "cois" is used only in "abairtí áirithe" is a plain lie unless they consider any dative of this word as "abairt áirithe". Is it clear now, or I have to repeat over and over?

(Message edited by Róman on June 16, 2007)

quote:

cois" is also used for any casual dative of "cos" in ALL Irish dialects.

Samplaí, le do thoil.

Scríobh Róman:

quote:

In Conamara there is no such word as "cos" - there is only "cois" in both nominative and dative

Seo samplaí as Roinn Chonnachata de Thobar na Gaedhilge.
cos
Máirtín Ó Direáin: Feamainn Bhealtaine

1 - 1 as 12: abairt 136, ag toiseacht ar lch 12, líne 7

Fear eile a bhí, mar deir sé féin, ag teacht aniar dá
chuairt as Bungabhala de shiúl oíche agus bhí bean a raibh
cóta dearg agus seáilín dubh uirthi cos ar chois leis.


cos
Seán Ó Ruadháin: An Mothall Sin Ort

3 - 4 as 31: abairt 113, ag toiseacht ar lch 13, líne 23

Sodar! Ní sodar ach cos in airde, agus deargchos in airde,
leis.


cos
Seán Ó Ruadháin: An Mothall Sin Ort

5 - 5 as 31: abairt 257, ag toiseacht ar lch 21, líne 13

Bhí tráth a bhféadfá an Bhreatain Mhór, agus as sin an
Mhór-Roinn, a bhaint amach de shiúl cos gan bonn a
fhliuchadh.


cos
Séamus Mag Uidhir: Fánaidheacht i gConndae Mhuigheo

2 - 2 as 8: abairt 796, ag toiseacht ar lch 58, líne 21

Acht nuair a bhíos sé ina dhith-thráigh, tá áiteacha san
gcuisle seo a dtig le duine nó beithidheach dul ó'n oileán
go dtí an mhóir-thír de shiubhal cos.


cos
Séamus Mag Uidhir: Fánaidheacht i gConndae Mhuigheo

6 - 6 as 8: abairt 1182, ag toiseacht ar lch 85, líne 5

Ar an dá luathas 's ar leag sé cos ar an gcarraig rug siad
air agus thug go barr na h-aille é.

quote:

What are you trying to prove? That there is such expression "le cois"?!

Ní hea, ach go bhfuil "le cois" (abairt seargtha, le brí cinnte nach mbaineann leis an ngéag úd níos mó) agus "le cos" ann.

Róman,

quote:

Is it clear now, or I have to repeat over and over?

As a reminder, please take care to keep discussions civil.

Caoimhín

Amharc ar na leathanaigh 10-11 i dTeanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhre. Cúpla sampla: báisteach/amuigh fén mbáistig; cos/ar mo chois; cleachta/bheith sa chleachtain; lámh/im láimh

chomh maith:

cloch/cloi(h)
croch/croi(h)
cruach/crúe(h)
luch/lui(h)

bróg/tá rud éigin im bróig
cloch/as iascach ón gcloich; taoide go cloich
cos/thit sé sa chois orm
gaoth/é a scaoileadh le gaoith
grian/amuigh fén ngréin
lámh/ag obair as láimh a chéile
naomhóg/istigh sa naomhóig

An Teanga Bheo: Óileán Chléire

Samplaí: amhastrach/ag amhastraigh; fearg/i bhfeirg; gealach/sa ghealaigh; lámh/im láimh; srón/sa tsróin

freisin:

banrí/ina banrín; ceárta/sa cheártain; cuisle/fém chuislinn; lacha/ag an lachain; dearna/im dhearnainn

lá/ dha scilling is ló; de/ga ló is d'oíche; bhíos ah obair ó ló


An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chonemara

(l. 20-21)

(i gcúpla frása -'casual dative')

baisteach/ tá sé 'na bháistigh
ciall/ tá sé as a chéill
bróg/ ar an mbróig; dhá bhróig

freisin: tigh Chiaráin srl

An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilg Ulaidh

(l. 78)

fuinneog/ an an fhuinneoig
taobh/ thart le mo thaoibh
girseach/ (agus mé) i mo ghirsigh
muc/ píosa gan/den mhuic

GRMA, A Bhirn.

cos/ar mo chois (nach TG ata i gceist le "mo chois"?)

Go bunúsach, is chuige seo a bhí mé: nach ionann "le cos" agus "le cois"

Ní teangeolaí na gramadóir mé. 'Sé an chaoi go gcuireann siar clamhsán Róman faoin gCO soir mé uaireanta. (Nó ar uairibh, fiú)

Lads,
can we not agree that for 'casual datives' we can find the prepositional form, in any dialect, but not always. We can also have, as Irish loves to do, phrases like 'le mo chois' that semantically sit in one place, not abstractable from their constituents. I see no problem if we allow the breath the dialects are telling us, so we can see what is happening either mechanically (dative) or usage (semantics)

"nach TG ata i gceist le "mo chois"?"

The way I see it, it is 'mo chos' as one unit, which then, dialect/person speaking, is inflected as one unit after a preposition, so [i] + [mo chos] = i mo chois

I think we are seeing a symptom of where a language uses idiom as a higher class above its grammar (ar maidin not ar mhaidin) for the purposes of communication while the language in its mechanics is losing its old IndoEuropean case system, so we are seeing a flexibility with forms that is confusing. Then when dialects are added in, this gets multiplied. A native speaking grammarian-stroke-historian would be most intuitivly at home here, perhaps

quote:

We can also have, as Irish loves to do, phrases like 'le mo chois' that semantically sit in one place, not abstractable from their constituents.

That is the only point I was making; and that such phrases (n'fheadar is the other example I gave) are also standard Irish.

I don't get involved in grammar or dialect discussion since most of the time I don't know (or care) what you are talking about.

quote:

Amharc ar na leathanaigh 10-11 i dTeanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhre. Cúpla sampla: báisteach/amuigh fén mbáistig; cos/ar mo chois; cleachta/bheith sa chleachtain; lámh/im láimh

chomh maith:

cloch/cloi(h)
croch/croi(h)
cruach/crúe(h)
luch/lui(h)

So where are the "abairtí áirithe"? In my understanding "abairtí áirithe" implies strictly defined situation when the forms like "cois" can be used. In the passage above I see free variation of the two forms with no "abairtí áirithe" lable attached. Furthermore literally on the next page the book states that forms like "cois" etc are traditional and are currently pushed out by "cos" etc (guess why?). So I still would like to see any proof that "cois" is used in "abairtí áirithe".

quote:

An Teanga Bheo: Óileán Chléire

Samplaí: amhastrach/ag amhastraigh; fearg/i bhfeirg; gealach/sa ghealaigh; lámh/im láimh; srón/sa tsróin

freisin:

banrí/ina banrín; ceárta/sa cheártain; cuisle/fém chuislinn; lacha/ag an lachain; dearna/im dhearnainn

lá/ dha scilling is ló; de/ga ló is d'oíche; bhíos ah obair ó ló

In this book there is not a SINGLE example of using "cos", "cluas" etc in dative. All example are in dative only. So again, where is the evidence about "abairtí áirithe"?

If you really insist - there is only one word in Irish with dative used in "abairtí áirithe". It is word "lá", whose old dative "ló" is used just in couple of well known phrases like "sa ló". This is something what IS abairt áirithe

(Message edited by Róman on June 16, 2007)

So dative is used regularly with all words (that have a special form) in Munster dialects? In both singular and plural? What about the Ulster dialects?
As for Connemara, I'm sure there's no special dative case.
Daithí

"An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chonemara

(l. 20-21)

(i gcúpla frása -'casual dative')

baisteach/ tá sé 'na bháistigh
ciall/ tá sé as a chéill
bróg/ ar an mbróig; dhá bhróig

freisin: tigh Chiaráin srl "

Yes, that's the point, I meant the forms before the slash are old nominatives -that is why I said to FnamB I heard 'ag cur baistí' in Connacht before, baisteach not probably been there

'Baisteach' and 'ciall' are still used in Connemara, for both nom. and dat.
'Bróig' is also used for dative, and nominative instead of 'bróg'.
'Baistí' is gen. It's used in this expression (ag cur baistí) though genitive is also on its way out in Connemara dialects.
'tá se 'na báistigh' - this might be dative, but probably used only in this phrase.

'tigh' has become a sort of preposition in these dialects. Normally, you'd say 'teach' in dative: i dteach, sa teach, ón dteach...

Daithí

quote:

So dative is used regularly with all words (that have a special form) in Munster dialects?

In singular - surely. In plural there is free variation, however in cases where there is no article (like: lem chapallaibh, de bhuaibh) nominative plural is very rare, the dative forms are preferred for clarity of meaning.

quote:

As for Connemara, I'm sure there's no special dative case.

That is accurate as long as we remember that it is dative that has pushed out nominative, not vice versa! Thus saying "i mo bhróg" is hardly possible in Conamara.

quote:

why I said to FnamB I heard 'ag cur baistí'

"Ag cur baistí" is genitive, so it is not related to the topic we are discussing. Implied "ag cur baisteach" must be some kind of misunderstanding.

"At this juncture it is extremely useful to bring into play notions put forward by Bickel
(2003), where he contrasts controller properties of Nepali and Belhare, and from this introduces
the notions of case-sensitivity and case-insensitivity. The meanings of these notions is fairly
transparent- the one crucially makes reference to the syntactic “valence frame,” whereas the
other refers strictly “to the semantic argument structure and to prominence hierarchies defined
there.” These notions are immediately useful in classifying the behavior of these controllers and
pivots."

Is he talking about sensitivity/non-sensitivity to rules like what I was talking about above?

What is going on here?
"(41) a. Is dochtúir capall (é) Cathal
COP doctor horses-GEN AGR Cathal"

Why is it not doctú(i)r na gcapall?


wings.buffalo.edu/linguistics/research/rrg/dillon_thesis.pdf

"le mo chois along with me
le mo cos with my foot"

Inlight of what Aonghus has said, and on page 131 of LI, where Ó Siadhail writes: "Possessive pronouns (mo, do, a, etc) are used with these prepostions to express pronominal objects: Tá Cáit anseo ar mo shon, 'Cáit is here on my behalf'; Tá seomra eile os do chionn 'There is another room above you'.

From Lars' website:
"Direct pronominal objects (in the form of simple personal pronouns) principally fall at the end of the sentence:

verb + subject + indir. object + etc. + dir. pronominal object
Irish: Scríobh sé don chailin é
English: He wrote it to the girl ."

Is this what we have been seeing?

Bearn, I am afraid I don't understand you.

Scríobh sé don chailín é. - it is accusative (é)

Tá seomra eile os do chionn - compound preposition.

Tá pian im chois. - simple dative.

The grammar of all three sentences is different, I don't understand what link you are trying to establish?

I was not talking about grammatical cases, more I got the impression that "pronominal objects" had meaning for the user that is different to that suggested by words/morphemes alone. Example, son -happy ness, which at some stage came with the prepostion 'ar' to mean on behalf of. This looks to me something like Aonghus was talking about when he said "nach ionann "le cos" agus "le cois" " . You seem to be taking a purely grammatical viewpoint, Aonghus a pragmatic one, and myself, trying to understand how both semantics and grammar are balanced.

I was wondering if 'pronominal objects' was one mechanism for idiomatically express something, even in examples, where the grammar itself would suggest a different meaning

They started like 'by means of', 'on account of'... in English and finished like 'instead of'...
Daithí

i.e. on my account
but: in my stead?! - instead of me

in Learning Irish:
ar nós is used with personal pronouns: ar nós mise, and not with poss.adj. ar mo nós...

le cois is an older expression which became a fixed phrase and the dative form in it is, say, petrified. The ordinary form for 'with... foot' is le cos - following the trend of replacing the dative form with the nominative one.
Of course, what happened in Connemara is the opposite because the dative form replaced the nom. one there. So they've got only 'le cois'.
Daithí

Thats it. So semantic drift led them to be different in meaning than constituents would suggest.

Exactly. And in the beginning they're used in the 'normal' way, i.e. in this case with poss.adj.: le mo chois (just like 'le mo chos')

Later, when they get more lexicalised (I hope this is the right word), they become syntactically more like ordinary prepositions:
ar nós mise
also, timpeall na Nollag, but timpeall orm (I don't think 'mo thimpeall' is possible for 'around me')
also, in aice na cathrach, in aice leis an gcathair; in aice liom (I'm not sure about i m'aice, but it sounds weird to me)...

Daithí

Around me can be said "i mo thimpeall", I think.

Le m’aice is used as well for "near to me".