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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through June 18, 2007 » Importance of Plurality « Previous Next »

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1664
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 08:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

We've seen in the English language that we can get along just fine without the plurals for words:

I saw sheep in the field.

In the English language though, we also have the indefinite article "a" which indicates singular in this instance:

I saw a sheep in the field.

(...even though a lot of people would say "one" to stress singular rather than saying "a".)

In the Irish Language, we have plurals for words, and we also have a system of "weak/strong plural" whereby the null singular and the genitive plural are identical:

Is maith liom an fear.
Is maith suí in aice fear.

Due to dialectal differences and so for forth though, there are times when the clarity of plurality is lost:

1: Chun fir a chrá
2: Chun fear a chrá

If I'm not mistaken, both these sentences have lost their clarity of plurality because:
1) The first one is plural in Ulster, but singular in Munster.
2) The second one is plural in Munster, but singular in Ulster.

Just thought I'd start this discussion, one of a few I've started about the areas where dialects clash and potentially cause problems. Another example might be: Ag lorg fear Vs Ag lorg fir (i.e. use of the genitive after verbal nouns).

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 11:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In Connemara:
sg. in aice fear/ in aice an fhir
pl. in aice fir/ in aice na bhfir

I don't think native speakers have any problems with this. Only perhaps if they speak different dialects to each other.

Besides, if it's ambiguous, you can say it in a different, more clear way. In this case: in aice le fear/leis an bhfear, le fir/leis na fir...

'Sheep' in your English example isn't 'without' plural, though plural is not overtly marked on it (by an ending). Of course the omission of the indefinite article implies it's plural!

The problem with Irish is that certain forms can be both sg. and pl. but in different cases, and even more, that the distribution of these forms in the morphological system can differ in dialects...

Daithí

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Jimnuaeabhrac
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Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 81
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 03:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have a theory that a farmer would almost always use “sheep” as a plural and “a ram” or “a ewe” for individual animals.

Likewise, “cattle” is plural while “a cow” and “a bull” is singular. You never say “a cattle.” (that is actually grammatically incorrect)


I grew up in Queens, NY, so I approach this subject with some humility.

However, I don’t think there are many activities that can be performed with, or on, individual animals irrespective of their gender. You are either working with “a cow” or “a bull” or “a ewe” or “a ram.” Therefore there is no cause to say a “a sheep” or “a cattle.”

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5618
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 03:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bhí buachaill bó thart tamall ó shin.
Seans go bhfuil freagra na ceiste aige.

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 04:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For example, you see an animal fifty yards or so far away from you, and you say - look, there's a sheep. Or someone has bought another sheep... no matter which sex etc. etc.

Sheep had a distinctive plural in Old English. It had an ending consisting of only one vowel (-e, or -a, I'm not sure), that would disappear later.

Daithí

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1666
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 04:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well that's all well and good for the sheep, but the topic was intended to be the word "sheep" at all, but rather treatment of the plural in Irish.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 06:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The only thing I know is that Npl and Gpl are the same for most declensions except those such as 'fear' or 'bróg' where the Gpl is identical to the Nsg.

Besides, in Cois Fhairrge dialect the Npl form is used for both, and the difference is obvious only after a definite article because of the initial mutations:

na fir : in aice na bhfir
na bróga : in aice na mbróga

When without the article, according to Ó Siadhail, N is used for both sg. ang pl.:

fear : ag seachaint fear (sg.)
fir : ag seachaint fir (pl.)

According to him, the G of feminine nouns is even rarer, especially with adjectives.

Now, while this presents no problem for speakers of this dialect, it may cause misunderstanding with speakers of other dialects.
As for the CO, I'd keep the difference in cases, at least because this exists in a lot of dialects.

Daithí



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