Hi everyone,

I was wondering how Gaeilge phonetically realizes the same consonants when colliding in two adjacent words, e.g.: dream mór. Do they geminate as is the case in English, e.g.: book keeping, or...?

Also, I'm not quite sure I fully understand the meaning behind the contrast pronouns (mise,thusa...etc) and emphatic (e.g.: mé féin). Perhaps the emphatic meaning is somewhat the same thing as in spoken French when we say for example: 'Moi, je suis content de te voir'. Could someone explain?

Thanks!

Incidental gemmination is on record as occuring in the dialects, I can think off the top of my head in Cois Fhairrige, but since it was not phonemic (distinctive) it was not focussed on. Genenerally, the rule is to make it single nowadays, but really one would geminate if carefully saying 'dream mór' as 'dramór' and 'dream mór' would have to be different

Gemmination would be more likely in labials than stops

A general rule that operated for a long time I think is that when two short coronals (sounds that need tip of tongue) come togeter they go long (r + r =trill)

Since Irish is been pronounced less tense nowadays, maybe that is part of the reason there is no longer grounds to have geminiation as much as there used to be

mé = me

mé féin =myself

mise =me (stressed

mise mé féin = myself (stressed)

I support - no gemination for stops at least in situations like "Cad tá ort" which pronounced as if spellt "Ca tá ort"

Ya, you'd be hearing it if it were there.

Also, it was reported as only a bit longer, not like the Italian cliched speech where you dwell for quite a while on the consonant

Maybe Lughaidh knows, but I think gemminates are generally 1 .5 times longer.

One Irish book, on Teileann has double gemminates, so you have a trill then a trill, or long long l then long l. This does not sound reasonable


The pattern in full:

[person] mé, tú, sé, sí, muid/sinn, sibh, siad
English: me, you etc

[person-self] + (pronounced as if héin): mé féin, tú féin, sé féin, sí féin, muid féin/sinn féin, sibh féin, siad féin
English: myself, yourself

[stress person] mise, tusa, eisean, ise, muidne/sinne, sibhse, siadsan
English: *me* as in 'no, no, don't look at her, look at *me*

[stress person-self] mise mé féin, tusa thú féin, eisean é féin, ise í féin, muidne muid féin/sinne sinn féin, sibhse sibh féin, siadsan iad féin
English: *myself* 'well for *myself*. Made with disjunctive form of pronoun (tú->thú, sé-é etc)


I'm sure not all of them are actually used in natural speech, and I think the me and him/her forms might blur over the cathegories in real native speech, as there are different levels of default and implied stress in some persons more than others

Chapter IX, Sandhi "The Irish of Cois Fhairrige, CO. Galway" Tomás De Bhaldraithe

248. "When the same consonants occur, originally, or in sandhi, at the end of one word and at the beginning of another, there is, in connecgted speech, no relaxing of the organs of speech between them, so that they constitute one long or double consonant. The double consonant so formed is usually only half-long and is sometimes reduced to a single length consonant, particularly in rapid speech."

I suppose one could so [s:] for a long s etc

In modern English in Ireland, people make the s long and dragged out, more than English or Americans, som maybe that is a little leftover of Irish (which presumably had a long s in both varieties long by default over much of the country)

longer at the end of word, I meant to say, before FnB points out that the s in 'space' is short!

quote:

[stress person] mise, tusa, eisean, ise, muidne/sinne, sibhse, siadsan
English: *me* as in 'no, no, don't look at her, look at *me*

This is a very bad way of teaching the difference between mé and mise. Truth of the matter is that the difference cannot be taught. All ya can do is observe people using the different forms in different contexts and pick up on how it works. There's no patterns to be found here for a native speaker of English, all ya can do is practise and practise, listen and listen.

quote:

longer at the end of word, I meant to say, before FnB points out that the s in 'space' is short!

Ironically, people form the countryside are known to pronounce (when speaking English) all broad s's as slender s's, i.e. they'd say the word "toast" as "toasht".

I'm flattered that you'd choose me as the nit-picker but I tend to focus on other stuff. . .

That is a generalisation -we dont all say besst/best, bésst/beast -that is older people.

I mentioned you as you *might* have pointed out what I said was wrong, not that you were a nitpicker

I agree, the above is not the best, and I said so, because it assumes a sort of matrix that is linear, and one can see examples where it is contrvened in irish text

quote:

Gemmination would be more likely in labials than stops

248. "When the same consonants occur, originally, or in sandhi, at the end of one word and at the beginning of another, there is, in connecgted speech, no relaxing of the organs of speech between them, so that they constitute one long or double consonant. The double consonant so formed is usually only half-long and is sometimes reduced to a single length consonant, particularly in rapid speech."

So if I understand properly, most consonants would be somewhat gemminated except perhaps for stops which would tend to be pronounced single in lenght. Is that correct?

As for my question about contrast forms, Fear_na_mbróg said:

quote:

This is a very bad way of teaching the difference between mé and mise. Truth of the matter is that the difference cannot be taught. All ya can do is observe people using the different forms in different contexts and pick up on how it works.

I guess that's what I will do...
Thanks anyway!

Slán!

So if I understand properly, most consonants would be somewhat gemminated except perhaps for stops which would tend to be pronounced single in lenght. Is that correct?

Yes. There are probably cases in men and with slow speech where stops are longer too ([L]?) but the rule is probably a good one.

My concern would be that this may stop been the case over time, so one day wont be the case

A chairde,

does it make or break your Irish - gemination of consonants I mean. Aren't there other more pressing issues?

quote:

does it make or break your Irish - gemination of consonants I mean.

No, but I was just curious to know what Irish did in that kind of situation. After all, I would wish someday to speak Irish quite fluently. Can you just imagine someone trying to speak English saying 'badog' and 'bukeeping' instead of 'bad dog' and 'book keeping'. He could probably be understood and yes, the purpose of a language is to be understood. However it isn't proper English. I would like to eventually be understood in Irish as well as to speak it properly.

quote:

Aren't there other more pressing issues?

Yes there are, you are right. I have quite enough to do struggling with grammar and dialectal differences.

Slán!