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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through June 11, 2007 » Adjective Declensions « Previous Next »

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 155
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 05:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have been reading through "Irish Grammar Book" by Nollaig Mac Congáil and I wanted to make sure that I am understanding the material...

In most of the learning courses I have come across so far, little depth has been given to adjectives. Usually you get the same short intro like "they usually follow the noun they modify, the must agree in number, gender, and case." And really that's about it for adjectives...

However in this book that is said literally the first sentence and from there it's 20+ pages that go into greater detail about adjectives.

The book breaks adjectives down into three declensions, which is something I have not seen yet. For those interested they break it down like this:

First Declension: This declension consists of adjectives that end in a broad or slender consonant except those ending in -(i)úil and some ending in -(a)ir. (p86, Congáil)

Second Declension: This declension consists of adjectives that end in -(i)úil and some that end in -(a)ir. (p92, Congáil)

Third Declension: This declension consists of adjectives that end in a vowel. The endings of adjectives in this declension never undergo any change except in the case of breá and te. (p95, Congáil)

In the first line of the section we are told "The adjective agrees in number, gender, and case (but not necessarily in declension) with the noun it modifies and also usually follows it." (p86, Congáil)

I understand that "declensions" are just "groupings" that adjectives have been placed into. But when might the "declension" have to agree with the noun it modifies, or is there even a case where it does?

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Bearn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 07:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Adjective delcensions seem to me very variable per dialect, so I'll use an example from me 'training dialect' (i.e. artifical rule-a-ma-jig device) as it shows up adjectives changes better than real speech

Masculine
cat beag
cait beaga

chait bhig
gcat mbeag

ar an gcat mbeag
ar na caitibh beagaibh

Feminine
muc bheag
muca beaga

muice bige
muc mbeag

ag an muic mbig
ag na mucaibh beagaibh

Notice one simply follows the mutation from the noun to the adjective. Of course this is an idealised version, but the real examples have exceptions, plus adjective endings make impossible the idealised changes of a CVC (consonat-vowel-consonat)arrangement.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 120
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 07:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Irish version of this book is clearer:
Ní gá gurb ionann díochlaonadh don aidiacht agus don ainmfhocal.
I.e. The noun changes according to its declension type and the adjective does according to its type, regardless whether the same kind of changes occur or not.
E.g.
Genitive:
an fhir mhóir (the easiest case, noun and adjective change in the same manner)
but:
an fhir mhaith (maith cannot change except for lenition)
an dochtúra mhóir (dochtúir 3rd declension, mór 1st declension)
an fhir bhródúil (fear 1st declension, bródúil 2nd declension of adjectives)
Vocative:
a chara mhóir! (the same in vocative: cara doesn't change but mór does according to its declension type)

There's only one exception. It is genitive plural.
Weak and strong plurals occur in nouns *and* adjectives in the same way:
e.g.
na bhfear mór
na ndochtúirí móra

Another exception in older language was dative case. If there was a special dative form of the noun, a special dative form of the adjective was used, too:
ag an fhuinneoig bhig

(By the way, because Bearn mentioned "beagaibh": This has been obsolete for centuries. -ibh was/is used only with nouns.)

(Message edited by lars on June 01, 2007)

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 156
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 07:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Bhearn...

Perhaps I am not seeing something...when I look at your examples I see the adjective agreeing with it's noun in number, gender, and case.

But from the sentence in the book that says "but not necessarily in declension," I am seeing room for an instance were the noun declension and the adjective declension must agree with each other. In other words you have to use a first declension adjective with a first declension noun.

From how I am reading this statement, there might be cases where something like this happens...and this is only an example of how I am understanding what it might mean...if wanted to say "happy fool."

amadán = fool
sona/séanmhar = happy

I would have to say "amadán séanmhar" and not "amadán sona" because "sona" is a third declension adjective and "séanmhar" is a first declension adjective.

Since there are five declensions nouns can fall into, not to mention some irregulars, I can see there being some problems if this is true. But then I thought, perhaps this only affects nouns in the first three declensions for some reason...perhaps because most of the nouns in Irish fall into these three declensions?

I was curious if anyone knows of any situations when this might happen?

I haven't seen it yet, but I am still new to the game.

Sorry...A Lars

I did not see your post.

So are you saying it isn't talking about when an adjective can be used, but how an adjective can be used?

I think I see what you are trying to say...that the manner in which the adjective changes depends on the declension of the noun it modifies like in your examples...

I thought it meant there might be situations that dictate which adjective you could use, or not use, depending on the declensions of the words?

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on June 01, 2007)

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on June 01, 2007)

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 121
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 08:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I would have to say "amadán séanmhar" and not "amadán sona" because "sona" is a third declension adjective and "séanmhar" is a first declension adjective.


No, you wouldn't.
What would you do if there was no word like "séanmhar"?
Couldn't the fool be happy then?
Of course he could: an t-amadán sona is OK
And of course there could be teach an amadáin shona.

quote:

that the manner in which the adjective changes depends on the declension of the noun it modifis?


No, the very opposite of that.
There can't be any agreement in the type of declension of nouns and their adjectives.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on June 01, 2007)

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 157
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 08:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That's just it...

I was curious if perhaps in the chaos of all things Irish there may have been some special subconscious pairings that have developed throughout the language's history between certain types of nouns and adjectives that the Irish figured out and forgot to tell the rest of us :0)

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 122
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 08:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, Irish is difficult enough. We shouldn't make it more difficult than it is ;-)

(Message edited by lars on June 01, 2007)

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1628
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 12:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As béal Bhirn:
quote:

na cait beaga

You want "cait bheaga" there. If the plural ends with a slender consonant, then the adjective better have a séimhiú.

Bearn aríst:
quote:

na gcat mbeag
ar an gcat mbeag
na muc mbeag

I don't think anyone puts urú's on adjectives anymore. (I've only ever seen it once in one book).
quote:

ar na caitibh beagaibh
ag na mucaibh beagaibh

Will someone please enlighten me on this? As far as I know, usage of the above terminology is akin to saying "thou shalt" in modern day English -- i.e. it's weird and out-dated and nobody does it anymore, and the only people that do it are well... a little different.

As béal Lairs:
quote:

a chara mhóir!

Are you sure about that? I had a very simple rule for the vocative in my head up until now:

1) The vocative is the same as the nominative except everything gets séimhiú'd
2) ...unless the noun is of 1st declension, in which case it's identical to the genitive case for singular. Or if it's plural, stick on a "a" and use the strong plural for adjectives, but still séimhiú everything.

Given these guidelines, I wuda thought native speakers would say: a chara mhór!

Lars aríst:
quote:

ag an fhuinneoig bhig

Again, this is about as common as "thou shalt" nowadays.

Lars aríst:
quote:

teach an amadáin shona

The séimhiú on the S after the N is debateable, I think.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Róman
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Post Number: 774
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 02:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Bhearn,

Mo leath-phingin:

plural "cait bheaga" has séimhiú on adjective, even if you descend to the level of Old Irish.

Other point - "leis na cataibh beaga". First of all, dative plural of nouns slenderizing in plural is made by DESLENDERIZING the stem and then appending "-aibh". More examples - an tÉireannach - na hÉireannaigh - ar na hÉireannachaibh; mac - mic - macaibh. Secondly, using -ibh ending with adjectives is preposterious as those endings were already obsolete by the time of Keating. Neither in dialect descriptions nor in Wagner's atlas I have ever seen a single instance of "-ibh" with adjectives - so maybe it is a time to give a break to those endings?

And last the most subtle point. While you could hear some instances of urú on adjectives in sentences like "ar an gcat mbán", it is a recent development. Historically datives of nouns were followed byu séimhiú - therefore in grammars hailing from 19th century you find consensus that although urú might be more logical, séimhiú should be preferred. Thus - "ar an gcat bhán"

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Post Number: 775
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 02:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

As far as I know, usage of the above terminology is akin to saying "thou shalt" in modern day English -- i.e. it's weird and out-dated and nobody does it anymore



Although I am still under impression after your accusation of me taking "crazy pills" - but if you take An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chléire, you will see that plural datives with -ibh are perfectly used there. In some situations as freely as simple plural, with no difference - and in some situations - as THE ONLY CHOICE (e.g. when there is no article). So don't bury perfectly current forms alive. Teanga Bheo was written in 90s - so it is rather up-to-date.
quote:

the only people that do it are well... a little different.


I notice it is not the first occasion when you justify your ignorance by calling other people. This is really sad!

(Message edited by Róman on June 02, 2007)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Bearn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 04:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"There can't be any agreement in the type of declension of nouns and their adjectives"

That is because if declension is thought of as a pattern of mutation, and is dependant on spelling/pronouniation of word, that fact that adjectives have different patterns and contexts of change to nouns, it would follow that they should/could not agree. For example, of 'cat' as m1 in the dictionary is followed by 'sona' one can see the words are structuraly different so cannot be ameanable to the same mutations


"You want "cait bheaga" there. If the plural ends with a slender consonant, then the adjective better have a séimhiú.

plural "cait bheaga" has séimhiú on adjective, even if you descend to the level of Old Irish."

I know the rule FmB,Rómán, but dialects are variabel here, and as it would break the idealised rule, I dropped it. I agree it should be a point to learn


"I don't think anyone puts urú's on adjectives anymore. (I've only ever seen it once in one book).

it's weird and out-dated and nobody does it anymore, and the only people that do it are well... a little different.

Secondly, using -ibh ending with adjectives is preposterious as those endings were already obsolete by the time of Keating."

Idealised. Idealised. I was attempting to explain by giving an idealied account. The examples I gave were to show the idea, not the form.


"I wuda thought native speakers would say: a chara mhór!"

If cara is 5th declensional, would that not be the case?


"First of all, dative plural of nouns slenderizing in plural is made by DESLENDERIZING the stem and then appending "-aibh". "

Indeed, I was not sure of this and couldnt remember off the top of my head to do so or leave it, proof I'm not actually living in the 6th century!

Oh ya, one other thing fo you dative heads:

as "Farasbarr Feasa ar Éirinn" 'tá na prátaí 'na bpaidrínibh' -a non genitive pl with eclipsis?

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 776
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 05:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I know the rule FmB,Rómán, but dialects are variabel here



I would like to see any evidence substantiating your claim, .i. adjective without séimhiú after a plural noun with last slender consonant. Scholarship from any dialect description, Wagner's atlas or excerpt from the writing of any well-acknowledged Irish writer is welcome.

quote:

'tá na prátaí 'na bpaidrínibh'



'na = ina, meaning "in their", urú is caused by word 'a'='their'. Btw, thanks for one more example of dative plural with -ibh!

And just in case FnB is still occupied with dispensing "crazy pills" to native speakers of Irish here are examples from Teanga Bheo (book published in 2003!):

i mbádaibh, i mballaibh stróinséartha, síos im brógaibh, a trí nó a ceathair de cheannaibh, coileach bán ar chearcaibh, im chluasaibh, ar a chúlaibh, duine desna fearaibh leo, ar na loingeasaibh, lán de luchaibh, bhí sé lán de phollaibh, isna portaibh, do bhaineadh leathadh as na súilibh aige

And just a quote from the book:

3.7.1 -(a)ibh an gnáthfhoirceann a bhíonn ag an tabh[arthach] i[olra].

I think our little pharmacist will be kept busy prescribing medicine to the whole island in the foreseeable future!

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 777
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 05:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

If cara is 5th declensional, would that not be the case?



The main thing if cara is masculine or feminine here as this word has dual gender.

Thus:

a chara mhóir - my friend (male)

or

a chara mhór - my friend (female)

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 123
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 05:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

As béal Lairs:

quote:

a chara mhóir!


Are you sure about that? I had a very simple rule for the vocative in my head up until now:

1) The vocative is the same as the nominative except everything gets séimhiú'd
2) ...unless the noun is of 1st declension, in which case it's identical to the genitive case for singular. Or if it's plural, stick on a "a" and use the strong plural for adjectives, but still séimhiú everything.



That happens with nouns but not with adjectives.
(And BTW: you don't lenite adjectives in vocative plural. a fheara móra!)

quote:

Given these guidelines, I wuda thought native speakers would say: a chara mhór!



Adjectives of first declension like "mór" have a distinctive genitive form and so a vocative form.
"A fhir mhóir" and "a chara mhóir" is OK.

quote:

Lars aríst:

quote:

quote:ag an fhuinneoig bhig


Again, this is about as common as "thou shalt" nowadays.



I wrote "In the older language ..." Thou shalt read everything. :-)

quote:

Lars aríst:

quote:

teach an amadáin shona


The séimhiú on the S after the N is debateable, I think.



Not in Standard Irish. "Dentals" rule doesn't apply to adjectives.

Lars

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Bearn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 05:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Rómán,
you are correct. My error comes from thiking on page 195 of M(h)ac an Fhailigh's Erris book. I thought he was saying that it varied in this dialect. I was wrong.

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Bearn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 06:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Still, I've lots of this stuff. From the vault:

upwards: suas
up there: shuas (lenition)
returning down(wards): anuas (+an prefix)

downwards: síos
down there: shíos (lenition)
returning up(wards): aníos (+an prefix)

North root: tuas
Cardinal North: root +ceart =tuaisceart
Northwards: ó + lenition -s + final stem =ó thuaidh
in the North: as above, drop ó =thuaidh
from the North: add ad- prefix =aduaidh

South root: deis
Cardinal South: root +ceart
Southwards: ó + lention of root =dheas
in the South: drop ó =dheas [theas in reality, maybe by analogy with thuaidh]
from the South: add -an prefix

East root: oir
Cardinal East: +(h)(e)ar [with no h, a devoicing of the r]
Eastwards: add -s prefix
in the East: lenite abover = shoir
from the East: add -an prefix

West root: iar
Cardinal West: root +(h)(e)ar [with no h, a devoicing of the r]
Westwards: root + -s prefix =siar
in the West: lenite above =shiar
from the West: add =an prefix =aniar

The spelling may be different in parts, but hey

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1633
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I've always seen "shíos" and "shuas" as "thíos" and "thuas"

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1671
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 01:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Shios and shuas are Scottish Gaelic forms.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 779
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 02:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lars,

I have a question about adjective declension, which I cannot clear for my self ar an ndroch-uair.

In the plural genitive there is cumbersome rule for adjectives in CO. How old is this rule and how wide is it spread in Irish dialects? In older grammar books I have never seen a hint of adjective ending depending on noun declension type!

I mean cases like - "ná mbróg maith" vs "na ndeochanna maithe".

Thanks for your input in advance.

p.s. I think your internet grammar is a great resource even if there are some imprecisions occasionally. It has helped me a lot. Keep it going!

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Post Number: 1634
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 02:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Adjectives get quite similar treatement to nouns in Irish. You have the singular and you have the plural:

Singular: dearg
Plural: dearga

and then you have genitive singular forms which depend upon the gender of the noun they describe:

Masculine: deirg
Feminie: deirge

There are two forms of genitive plural, a weak plural and a strong plural. The weak form is used if the noun has a weak plural, and the strong if strong. Therefore you have:

an bosca dearg
na boscaí dearga

ag lorg an bhosca dhearg
ag lorg na háite deirge

ag lorg na mboscaí dearga (maybe an urú on "dearga")
ag lorn na bhfear dearg (maybe urú again)

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Róman
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Post Number: 781
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Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 02:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

There are two forms of genitive plural, a weak plural and a strong plural.


I know the rule in CO, you don't need to remind me it. My question was - is it something what is wide-spread in natural Irish dialects, or something on the lines of "sa siopa" - heard only in a few hamlets close to Gailleamh, whereas 95% of native Irish speakers say "sa tsiopa" - in Munster, Ulster, Mayo, even north Connacht!

Re plural genitives: especially bearing in mind that until quite recently there was no such thing as "strong" plural, as -anna and -acha also dropped -a in genitive. In Modern Irish (Ó Siadhal) there are examples from Dún na nGall on the lines - "ag cur ceisteann" and something similar in Corca Dhuibhne (as I remeber from Teanga Bheo). So it is natural to presume that in 19 century and possibly in the first half of 20th century the CO rule for adjectives could not operate, .i. one more narrow "Galwayism"???

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lughaidh
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Post Number: 1674
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Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 02:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Donegal -> ag cur ceastrach, in áit -ceisteann.

What you say about -acha and -anna plurals is right. Those who are interested can have a look at An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Uladh, pp. 76-77.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Róman
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Post Number: 786
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Posted on Sunday, June 03, 2007 - 03:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

What you say about -acha and -anna plurals is right.



But then it means that there is no such thing as 'strong' and 'weak' plurals for adjectives!

what is the difference between:

na fir mhóra - na bhfear mór, and
na ceastracha móra - na gceastrach mór???

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 124
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Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 08:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I have a question about adjective declension, which I cannot clear for my self ar an ndroch-uair.

In the plural genitive there is cumbersome rule for adjectives in CO. How old is this rule and how wide is it spread in Irish dialects? In older grammar books I have never seen a hint of adjective ending depending on noun declension type!

I mean cases like - "ná mbróg maith" vs "na ndeochanna maithe".

Sorry, I can't answer this question.

Pre-CO-grammars of 20th century (like O´Nolan, 1934) mention a "tendency to assimilate to the other cases", i.e. maithe/móra instead of maith/mór in genitive plural.
(example: Bliain na mBuaċaillí mBána)

In 19th century grammars nominative singular and genitive plural of adjectives are invariably the same.
(Even so in Finck, "Araner Mundart", 1899, which should describe a natural dialect)

Ó Siadhail ("Modern Irish") says that genitive plural is used "only in petrified phrases" in the dialects (he only deals with genitive plural of nouns). Which means that nominative plural is used instead of genitive plural. And your question would not arise.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on June 04, 2007)

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Róman
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Post Number: 789
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Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Ó Siadhail ("Modern Irish") says that genitive plural is used "only in petrified phrases"



Although brilliant in the breadth of examples, I find this book too brave and too quick to draw conclusions. Maybe the reason is that the author is too die-hard Cois-Fhairrge-ist?

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!

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Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 07:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't see any evidence in "Modern Irish" of a preference for any one dialect.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 790
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 12:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I don't see any evidence in "Modern Irish" of a preference for any one dialect



Just count number of examples from Connacht - it is highly obvious that the main focus is this dialect, other dialects are covered only insofar they have something differently from CF. There is couple of things typical of Munster which are not covered at all, just because there is nothing comparable in CF.

Gaelainn na Mumhan abú!



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