That other thread takes to damn long to load:
http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=20&post=57106#PO ST57106

Scríobh Mac:

quote:

I think I might have figured my dilemna out above. In Aonghus' quote, they are using the plural genitive of "mouth" which is "béal."

I'm still confused, just now on a different point.

So my question now: Is the genitive case used after the preposition "as?" Ó Dónáill's FGB indicates under the entry for "as:" does not affect the initial letter of following noun.

The answer is "sometimes"
http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/genpraep.htm#abgeleitet

derived prepositions (réamhfhocail chomhshuite)is what we have here, and it is followed by the genetive.

I found a good description in MacCongghail, I'll transcribe it this pm, but basically these are "stock phrase prepositions"

Like these?

http://mbm.dotnet11.hostbasket.com/Cainteoir/Gramadach.aspx?Abhar=cinealacha_rea mhfhocal


Genitve prepositions (compounded things)

Not exactly. At least, I don't think so. Some prepositions seem to always take the genitive; others only as part of certain phrases.

(Message edited by aonghus on May 28, 2007)

And maybe I'm wrong. I have a noggling feeling that what we may be looking at is the nominative singular, rather than the genitive plural.

Where are the Grammar Gurus when you need them?

Lars, bist du da?
Lughaidh, où est-tu?

quote:

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/genpraep.htm#abgeleitet

Don't pay a blind bit of attention to that site -- the person who wrote it is in competant, and I can pick out at least five mistakes before I even begin to scroll down.

Cá bhfuil competant?

I have a noiggling feeling

The typo devil is busy today.

As far as I know, "as" is never followed by the genitive case.

Yes. I'm more than ever sure that I confused myself and others. Sorry.

"as ucht" is a derived preposition (réamhfhocal comhshuite), and the whole phrase would be followed by the genitive

"Go raibh maith agat as ucht na cabhrach, a Lughaidh!"

---

As MacCongáil

"is éard atá i gceist le réamhfhocal comhshuite abairt sioctha ina bhfuil réamhfhocal simplí agus ainmfhocal. Is iondúil go leanann an ghinideach réamhfhocal comhshuite"

Mar shampla, "ar aghaidh", i. ar aghaidh an tí.

---

So back to the verses in question:

"Cinnte!" arsa Íosa leo, "nár léigh sibh riamh é seo: 'As béal naíonán agus leanaí deoil bhain tú moladh amach duit féin'?" Matha 21:16

Moltar do mhaorgacht os cionn na spéartha
as béal naíonán agus leanaí cíche. Salm 8:2-3


I trust an Bíobla Naofa, and since it is in two passages I'm not inclined to think it is a typographic error.

So who will explain the grammar to us?

From the mouth of infants and sucklings ...

béal - dative singular


I don't understand what you don't understand, what is the whole co-motion about?

Tagann mearbhall orm nuair a dhéanaim iarracht anailís a dhéanamh ar ghramadach.

Tá iolra sa Bhéarla (From the mouths of infants), chuir sin ar strae muid. Ní cabhraíonn sé gurbh ionann an ainmneach uatha agus an ginideach iolra de béal!

GRMA as muid a fhuascailt!

Breis samplaí as Tobar na Gaedhlige

Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir
Gabh ar d'aghaidh, agus sé do bheatha 'na bhaile” arsa bunadh an toighe as béal a chéile.
An lá thar na bhárach ní rabh as béal a' bhig sa' mhóir fríd na bailte acht bás an Chearrbhaigh.
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Faoi Chrann Smola
Thug triúr freagar as béal a chéile air.
Seosamh 'ac Grianna: Pádraic Ó Conaire agus Aistí Eile
Sgaoileadh urchair leo, agus chonnaic siad na bladhairí ag léimnigh as béal na ngunnaí cé ach rabh a fhios acú cá'r thuit na pileáir.
Bhaintí truisleadh as fear acú corr-uair, agus bhaintí fosgladh as béal na ndaoiní ag amharc orthú.
Niall Ó Domhnaill: Scairt an Dúthchais
Baineadh fosgladh as béal gach fir. Tharraing siad a n-anál arais, gan smaointeadh go rabh siad tamall annsin gan anál ar bith a tharraingt.

(fosgladh < foscailt, leagan de oscailt)

quote:

Don't pay a blind bit of attention to that site -- the person who wrote it is in competant, and I can pick out at least five mistakes before I even begin to scroll down.

Of course I'm "in competant", no doubt.
But which mistakes did you find, a Fhir_na_mBróg?

Lars

As béal Lairs:

quote:

Of course I'm "in competant", no doubt.
But which mistakes did you find, a Fhir_na_mBróg?

Lars

faoi a coinne - faoina coinne
ar nós na daoine - ar nós na ndaoine
ar nós mé féin - ar mo nós féin
i measca na nduine - i measc na ndaoine
trasna an garraí - trasna an gharraí
teacht trasna ar duine - teacht trasna ar dhuine
timpeall na Nollaig - timpeall na Nollag

And then there's the questionable ones:

ar aghaidh an dhorais - ar aghaidh an dorais
os mhair an dhorais - os mhair an dorais

And that's brushing over it as opposed to using a fine-tooth comb.

"Only a handful of nouns have a unique dative, and most of them are parts of the body (i láimh, i gcois). Use of a special dative elsewhere, I would say, is probably gonna make you come across as a stuck-up posh ponse."

Oh...so that's why 'duilleoga ar naibh crainnibh beagaibh' got such funny looks...

As regards "béal naíonán", I believe the singular form tends to be used for the plural when there's a "respective" thing going on, i.e. where each thing is expected to possess its own other thing. For instance:

They put the hats on their heads.
Chuireadar na hataí ar a gceann.

That's not too alien to English either -"they put hats on their head" is not too weird

What is "os mhair an dorais" ? Grma

Botún cló, dearfhainn.

os comhair an dorais, seans?

quote:

And that's brushing over it as opposed to using a fine-tooth comb.

Thanks.
That's really a lot. I should revise and change it. (Unfortunately I haven't read it since years)

quote:

What is "os mhair an dorais" ? Grma

Shit. Another mistake.

Lars

Lars,
I'm not one for 'good feeling messages' and all that stuff, but I think the fact that such a compendium is online is a plus point. Now it just needs sifting and remixing.

"os mhair" means "before" in the sense of space, but not time (as far as I know).

Sheas sé os mo mhiar = He stood before me

A Fhear na mBróg (más tú féin atá ann an babhta seo!),

Glacaim le d'argóint gur chirte "ar mo nós féin" ó thaobh na gramadaí de - ach ina dhiaidh sin is uile nach bhfuil "ar nós mé féin" seanbhunaithe sa gcaint? Sin an leagan atá cloiste agam riamh.

An rialaíonn an Caighdeán air seo ar chor ar bith? Níl cóip de agam (ná léite agam riamh, is náir liom a rá.)

Abigail

As béal Abigail:

quote:

Glacaim le d'argóint gur chirte "ar mo nós féin" ó thaobh na gramadaí de - ach ina dhiaidh sin is uile nach bhfuil "ar nós mé féin" seanbhunaithe sa gcaint? Sin an leagan atá cloiste agam riamh.

Bheadh níos mó Gaoluinne cloiste agatsa ná agamsa, mar sin bheadh orm do chuid ráite a chreidiúint. Ní féidir liom míniú cén fáth go ndéarfadh daoine "ar nós mé féin" (.i. ainmneach an ainmfhocail phearsanta a úsáid seachas an fhoirm ghinideach).

Tuigim duit! Níl míniú agam air ach oiread. Ní bheinn chomh cinnte sin nár bhotún é, nó tréith ar leith pearsanta, murach go bhfaca mé sa "Teanga Bheo" é chomh maith.

Agus níl a fhios agam ach oiread an bhfuil níos mo Gaeilge cloiste agam - nach tú atá i do chónaí in Éirinn? Ach bím ag labhairt leis an mbuíon beag céanna arís is arís eile agus b'fhéidir go tugaim níos mó de na mionrudaí faoi deara dá bhrí sin.

Seo rud aisteach eile (cé gur fearr a d'fheilfeadh sé don ábhar eile atá faoi sheol againn, is dócha): deirtear "a shúile seisean" seachas "a shúilese" scaití le haghaidh beim a chur ar fhorainm sealbhach. Níl sé cloiste agam ach amháin ó chainteoirí Chonamara agus ní bheadh aon iontas orm más rud neamhchaighdeánach é amach is amach. Ach is ann dó!

quote:

"os mhair" means "before" in the sense of space

Perhaps. But I doubt that.
I couldn't find it in any dictionary (e.g. Dinneen, Ó Siadhail)
There is only one other example at Google: "Neil McEwan's Irish Lessons" (which obviously was my source some years ago). It's probably a typo there (instead of os comhair).

Lars