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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through May 30, 2007 » Flexion vs syntax: grammar corpuscles & alteration « Previous Next »

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 03:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was looking at grammar and I noticed something that might be of philosophical interest to some.

Recalling what Mac Léinn said about music and speech, I was looking at how to train recognition of genetive and dative phrases in text. To break up sentances, I decided to use linking curves rather than grammar trees as the latter are technical and unweildy.

The result was that the drawings took on a corpusclular form which seems to intuitivly the different gramamr units on different levels. For example, look at "Níor chuala tú, a leithéid de thorann, ó lá do bheirthe":

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dgk36dcn_18g8xs72

I think this to be a consequence of the language needing a genitve phrases & dative phrases that are units in themselves. They remind me of corpuscles in and unto themselves like standing waves on a guitar string

Another intesting point (for me anyhow!) is that synthetic flexion like 'chualas' (preterite "hear" +lenition +first person singular) sits on one axis, and the syntax sits on another, so in a way, the more analytical a language becomes the longer the phrasing becomes. Or in other words, the ideals of absolute bound and mixed morphemes and ideal of absolute syntactic relationships are two opposite and contrasting poles that show up in spoken languages.

It makes it easy to see morphemes and fronting and syllabes, all things apparently usually discreet, but from another perspective, very much interlinking.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1610
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 03:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I for one haven't a clue what you're talking about.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 585
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 05:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

It makes it easy to see morphemes and fronting and syllabes, all things apparently usually discreet, but from another perspective, very much interlinking.



Very interesting effort a BRN. I think that for adults, the biggest obstacle for learning another language is the rapid movement from single words to sentences. There's very little time and energy spent on learning bits of sentences, phrases as we might call them in both language and music. But perhaps more so in music, where there's a plethora of terms to describe musical bits and pieces. In jazz, the music area I've studied, there are terms such as riffs, runs, trills, progressions, etc. The only way to master the music is to understand the smaller combination of notes and then one moves on to larger phrases and finally choruses, verses, etc.

I feel that this approach would work in language, especially one as challenging as Irish. For example, whenever I hear the phrase an seachtain seo chugainn, I hear two separate bits, or mini phrases: "an seachtaine" and "seo chugainn." It's one of the easiest phrases for me to understand because I've grasped the mini-phrases. I wish I could extend this manner of learning to enough phrases, like important verbal constructions, and prepositional phrases so common in Irish. I think I would progress at a faster pace in the learning of the spoken language.

(Message edited by mac_léinn on May 25, 2007)

(Message edited by mac_léinn on May 25, 2007)

Múineann gá seift

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 1160
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 06:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If Fear na mbrog doesn't understand it then it must be very very complicated indeed. I still like you though BhRN, even though I never understand you. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 07:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Riona,
I fear my delivery often is not the most smooth -plus some of my hopes for the language differ from a lot of other people in the detail. We all want it to survive and prosper, but we all have personal wishes too.

Mac Léinn,
I too see the phrase you cited the same way. The problem for us is that while 'seo' and 'chugainn' might mean one thing at one level of analysis, there is apparent semantic elasticity for the learner's point of view as every time a word moves to a group of two words, to a phrase to a sentance, it is not about a simple sum of parts, perhaps because we as humans can apply meaning to things at different levels, and in this case, from morpheme to word to prepositional phrase there is a lot of wriggle room.

That is why Inuit and native american language which seem to use all morphemes like little blocks would shed more light on this subject.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 151
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 07:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The problem I see with a phrase method of learning...is that there is room for getting trapped into those phrases.

For instance, Irish On Your Own is a wonderful course, it probably has the most audio material to support the written material than any other Irish course out there.

However, it used phrases to introduce the grammar material, and I found myself not learning much with it because when I tried to expand beyond those phrases I felt like I had no foundation to support me.

While I could form small sentences, I could only form small sentences...when it came to forming longer and more complex phrases there was nothing to go on. That was the only flaw in my mind.

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 588
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 09:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The problem I see with a phrase method of learning...is that there is room for getting trapped into those phrases.



I was using phrase in a different way than how it's applied in the book Irish on Your Own. I'm talking about two, three and four word combinations of words that occur in Irish, as in any language. Like my example "an seachtain seo chugainn. It's not a complete sentence; it's a fragment of a sentence. So maybe fragment is a better word for me to use than phrase.

Anyway, I'm sure some people would get trapped no matter what learning method they try. For myself, I find the opposite to be true. Being able to identify these frequently occurring fragments when listening to Irish speakers is a boon for me in understanding what they're saying.

Múineann gá seift

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 589
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 09:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The problem I see with a phrase method of learning...is that there is room for getting trapped into those phrases.



I was using phrase in a different way than how it's applied in the book Irish on Your Own. I'm talking about two, three and four word combinations of words that occur in Irish, as in any language. Like my example "an seachtain seo chugainn. It's not a complete sentence; it's a fragment of a sentence. So maybe fragment is a better word for me to use than phrase.

Anyway, I'm sure some people would get trapped no matter what learning method they try. For myself, I find the opposite to be true. Being able to identify these frequently occurring fragments when listening to Irish speakers is a boon for me in understanding what they're saying.

Múineann gá seift



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