You know that way that you can put empasis on a noun:

mo chóta, ach mo chóta-sa.

How is this done with verbs:

Buailfidh mé é -but how to say 'I will ENJOY beating him' with emphatic empasis?

To emphasise the verb itself, I think the Irish language provides no other means than to stress the pronunciation of the verb.

As for emphasizing the positive-ness of it, I've heard people using "Do" in the past tense, such as "Do rinne mé é".

Tyically, I think Irish built-in emphasis only applies to pronouns, and you've to be creative with your voice in other places.

You can put stress on the verb by adding "is amhlaidh a" before it.

Is amhlaidh atá a fhios agam sin.
Is amhlaidh a chluinim a bhfuil tú a rá.

I think "amhlaidh" is more like "it so happens"... I don't know if you can go so far as to say it emphasises the verb.

Eisean a mharaigh an t-éan seachas ise!
Is amhlaidh a mharaigh seachas a shábháil sé an t-éan.

I've learnt that at Coleraine University.

So could we have a middle ground where 'is amhlaidh a' is used for some construction and not others? Buailfidh mé é vs Is amhlaidh a bhuailfidh mé é? That is, simple sentances where stress whould need a rewording?

I think "is amhlaidh" would work well with verbs to do with knowing/hearing something, and with past tense.

Do syntactic pointing of stress on main information carrying verb in relation to the 'social semantics' of knowing/have heard that X, because so often, one has heard (past tense) that so and so went of with such a wan.

Reportage stress, in other words.

My example, then, would not be the best as it is more of a promise, not a report.

I'd read that the "do" was the way of forming the past tense in middle irish or somesuch. It's where the d' comes from in past tense verbs that begin in vowels.

anybody know if there's any truth to that, or have I completely misremembered?

'Do' is the old preterite marker, and before that 'ro'.

Sorry about the above posting -even I have problems decoding it!

Verbs can be stressed in the following ways:

I. Verbal Noun (VN) in a Progressive Structure-initial position

(Is) ag caint leis mo mhuintir a bhi/ BRN.
It is talking to family BRN was.

(Archaic, but acceptable)

II. Inverted VN Structure
The tense and other info missing from the VN is contained in the Relative Clause, on the verb de/an. The initial copula is usually not expressed. This form is used with verbs that express action (not, "be").

An fhuinneog a bhris a rinne BRN.
BRN broke the window.

I. and II.above are common in Munster

III. Last Order Focus - Relative Clause

A. Reference to an object ('Se/ard)

'Se/ard a du/irt BRN na/ go raibh BRN sa/sta.
What BRN said was that BRN was satisfied.

B. Reference to a person ('Se/)

'Se/ a rinne e/ na/ BRN.
The one who did it was BRN.

C. Verb as VN

'Se/ard a rinne BRN na/ an fhuinneoga a bhriseadh.
What BRN did was break the window.

IV. Indirect Relative Clause ('Se/ and chaoi)

'Se/ an chaoi ar gortaigh BRN e/ fe/in.
BRN actually hurt himself.

(presumably from breaking my family's window and being happy about it)

This structure is used in Connacht.


Sorry, but I be a dude from the 'hood and totally fada-less. Lotsa busted panes on my turf. Abu/ Compton!

Thank you, SBC.

quote:

You know that way that you can put empasis on a noun:
mo chóta, ach mo chóta-sa.

That puts emphasis on the possessive, and not on the noun:
mo chótasa = MY coat (... and not yours).

quote:

An fhuinneog a bhris a rinne BRN.

"An fhuinneog a bhriseadh a rinne BRN", nach ea?

Lars

An rud a rinne BRN ná an fhuinneog a bhriseadh.

It is strange that nobody has noted the simplest way of emphasizing verbs!

You can use the same -sa/-se/-ne prefixes if there is "foirm táite" and emphasizing pronoun if it is "foim scartha".

E.g.:

deirim-se
deirir-se
deir seisean, deir sise

deirimíd-ne
deir sibhse
deirid siadsan

in the past tense:

duart-sa
dúraís-se
duairt seisean, duairt sise
dúramair-ne
dúrabhair-se
dúradar-san

in the future tense:

déarfad-sa
déarfair-se
déarfaidh seisian, déarfaidh sise
déarfam-na/ déarfaimíd-ne
déarfaidh sibhse
déarfaid siadsan

This how it looks like in Munster. In other dialects it must be akin to 3rd person singular.

e.g. duairt mise, tusa, sinne/muidne, siadsan
deir tusa, sinne/muidne, siadsan
déarfaidh mise, tusa, sinne/muidne, siadsan

That's what I was thinking initially, but I didnt want to get carried away

quote:

I didnt want to get carried away

Cad 'na thaobh? Do bhí an ceart agat ar dtúis, mar sin :)

Well because at the time I was looking at agglutinating languages and I did not want to start plugging everything into everthing!

quote:

It is strange that nobody has noted the simplest way of emphasizing verbs!

I'd think this doesn't emphasize the verb but the person
Deirirse = YOU say (not: you SAY)

Lars

So its back to the trail again? Looks like voice inflection will do then.

quote:

I'd think this doesn't emphasize the verb but the person

Wrong assumption. Just like in "mo chota-sa" pronoun is emphasized, not noun - then in 'deirir-se" verb is emphasized. Btw - there is NO pronoun formally in "deirir-se" - therefore that idea is simply illogical

References, please? I was taught that it does emphasize the person.

There are tons of examples - this passage from Caoineadh Art Uí Laoghaire is the first that comes to mind:

M'fhada-chreach léan-ghoirt
ná rabhas-sa taobh leat
nuair lámhadh an piléar leat,
go ngeobhainn é i mo thaobh dheas
nó i mbinn mo léine.

As béal Lairs

quote:

That puts emphasis on the possessive, and not on the noun:
mo chótasa = MY coat (... and not yours).

Not necessarily that strong -- there's plenty of times in Irish where a "mise" or "eisean" would be translated without raising the voice or stressing a syllable.

As béal Rómáin

quote:

Just like in "mo chota-sa" pronoun is emphasized, not noun - then in 'deirir-se" verb is emphasized. Btw - there is NO pronoun formally in "deirir-se" - therefore that idea is simply illogical

You been taking your crazy pills?

Dúras = Dúirt mé
Dúras-sa = Dúirt mise

When EVER you see "se,sa,na,ne,sean,san" tagged onto the end, it always emphasises a PRONOUN (i.e. me, you, him, her, it, that, this, those, these, us, them)

I'm not too familiar with the "ir" prefix, but if:

deirir = deir tú

, then:

deirirse = deir tusa

(Also your logic is very flawed above, how come it emphasises the PRONOUN in your former example while it DOESN'T emphasise the pronoun in your latter example?)

I'm no native speaker by any stretch of the imagination, but if I wanted to emphasise a verb (e.g. he kicked the ball rather than punched it), then I'd vocally stress the syllables. (Also, in the case of the past tense, I'd prefix "do").

As beol Aibigaile:

quote:

M'fhada-chreach léan-ghoirt
ná rabhas-sa taobh leat

this reads as "I was not by your side", not "I was not by your side". You just confirmed my point Aibigal

As beol an Fhir na mBróg:

quote:

You been taking your crazy pills?

Keep your arrogance to yourself, nobody is interested in your vanity!

quote:

Dúras = Dúirt mé

First of all, there is no such word as "dúras", so before calling anyone - check the facts first! "Duart" is not "duairt mé", it is "duart" - a normal verb with foim táite. The fact that caighdeán zombies are explained natural Irish forms with the help of pronouns, when there is none in it - does not mean "pronoun" makes a sudden appearance. And if there is no pronoun - then there is no way you can stress something non-existant.

quote:

When EVER you see "se,sa,na,ne,sean,san" tagged onto the end, it always emphasises a PRONOUN

Wow, using capitals to make a silly point across. Just for your information - pronouns are never stressed in Irish (except for special emphasized forms like "mise"), have never been, as initially all they were - was a single syllable tucked between verbs prefix and verb itself. And that is the reason no native speaker would ever say "mo chota", only "mo chota-sa".

quote:

I'm no native speaker by any stretch

We noticed that on many occasions, no reason to remind.

quote:

then I'd vocally stress the syllables

Just like any English speaker transposing his intonation patterns into Irish. Ráth Dia ort ach gan mise!

Or you just misread a fine poem!
You're right, that wasn't the best of examples, since it admits either reading without too much of a stretch.

Let's move on to something less ambiguous then. Do you have a copy of Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí? Take a look at sections 13.33 and following, 13.38 in particular.

13.38 Maidir leis na foirmeacha treise ní mór a thuiscint
•nach gcuirtear aon bhéim ghutha ar an aidiacht shealbhach
•gur ar an eilimint den fhorainmneach is forainm (agus nach ar an eilimint is réamhfhocal nó briathar) atá an treisiú: romhainne, chuireamarna
•nach gcuirtear aon bhéim ghutha ar na hiarmhíreanna féin: acusan, a mhacsan, rithfidís‑sean, iadsan, annsan, dósan.
Do bhrí na cainte a thagraíonn "treisiú" san alt seo. Do neart an ghlóir a thagraíonn "béim ghutha".

Dála an scéil, má tá fonn ort m'ainm a ghaelú ní chuirfidh mise i do choinne ach é a litriú i gceart: "Aibigéal" san ainmneach agus ligfidh mé fút na foirmeacha eile a chumadh.

Ach táim breá sásta mar a baistíodh mé!

As béal Rómáin go mo chuaise:

quote:

Keep your arrogance to yourself, nobody is interested in your vanity!

No point in arguing on this one, we'll have to agree to disagree -- because I have a firm belief that I'm right and no argument you can pose will sway that. One thing though, I'd challenge you to find one single Gaeilgeoir who agrees with you that "sa,se,sean,etc" emphasise anything other than the pronoun.

Fear na mBróg do chan:

quote:

"I have a firm belief that I'm right and no
argument you can pose will sway that"

Sin sáinmhiniú amháin ar sotal, gan amhras.

A Aonghuis, what if I were to argue to you that the Earth is flat? I take it you have a firm belief that the Earth is sort of spherical in shape, so would any argument I can pose sway your belief?

(Out of curiosity, why do you never lenite after prepositions?)

Níl fhios agam. Bain triail as! Dá mbeadh bunús le'd argóint, agus saineolas agat, bheinn sásta éisteacht leat.

The problem in you spats with other people is that you are typically using language very loosely; and when it comes to Róman he uses linguistic terms very strictly.

Agus nuair a thosaíonn tusa ag caitheamh mionna móra, filleann Phil orainn!

quote:

why do you never lenite after prepositions?

Níl fhios agam.

recté: in your spats

---

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pronoun

The part of speech that substitutes for nouns or noun phrases and designates persons or things asked for, previously specified, or understood from the context.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subject

9. Grammar. (in English and many other languages) a syntactic unit that functions as one of the two main constituents of a simple sentence, the other being the predicate, and that consists of a noun, noun phrase, or noun substitute which often refers to the one performing the action or being in the state expressed by the predicate, as He in He gave notice.

ainmní [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
(sa ghramadach) an rud a dtugann an briathar faisnéis faoi.

forainm [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
ainm, sloinne; leasainm; focal ar nós mé, tú, é, í, iad, agus araile, a úsáidtear in ionad ainmfhocail.

24.3 Treisiú Briathra
24.3.1 Tá dhá phríomhbhealach ann le briathra a threisiú sa Ghaeilge.
Is féidir:
(a) frásaí áirithe [m.sh. Is amhlaidh, Is é an chaoi], a chur rompu agus úsáid a bhaint as Clásal Coibhneasta,
nó
(b) ainm briathartha a dhéanamh den bhriathar atá san abairt agus úsáid a bhaint as an mbriathar déan chomh maith agus é i gClásal Coibhneasta.
Samplaí
(a) Tá sí ina múinteoir le mí.
Is amhlaidh atá sí ina múinteoir le mí.
D’fhág sé ar fad iad.
Is é an chaoi ar fhág sé ar fad iad.
(b) Thit siad anuas den bhalla.
Titim anuas den bhalla a rinne siad.
Dhíol sí a carr.
A carr a dhíol a rinne sí.
Rachaidh sí go Meiriceá.
Dul go Meiriceá a dhéanfaidh sí.
Oibríonn sé mar dhochtúir.
Obair mar dhochtúir a dhéanann sé.

24.3.3 Má tá an Chopail féin in úsáid san abairt, is féidir í a iompú
droim ar ais agus na foirmeacha is ea nó ba ea a úsáid chun an
bhéim a chur i bhfeidhm.
Is príomhoide í. Príomhoide is ea í.
Ba pheileadóir iontach é. Peileadóir iontach ba ea é.
An tae nó caife é sin agat? Caife is ea é.
Ba mhúinteoir a bhean chéile. Múinteoir ba ea a bhean
chéile.
24.3.4 Nuair a úsáidtear an briathar bí in abairtí aicme, is féidir béim a chur i bhfeidhm orthu trí ord na bhfocal a athrú agus an forainm réamhfhoclach oiriúnach den réamhfhocal i a úsáid.

Gan bhéim	Le béim
Tá mé i mo mhúinteoir	Múinteoir atá ionam.
Tá tú i do cheoltóir maith	Ceoltóir maith atá ionat.
Bhí sé ina chigire	Cigire a bhí ann.
Beidh sí ina dochtúir	Dochtúir a bheidh inti.
Bhí muid inár mic léinn	Mic léinn a bhí ionainn.
Bhí sibh in bhur n-amadáin!	Amadáin a bhí ionaibh.
Tá siad ina n-óinseacha	Óinseacha atá iontu.

---

Goidte as

Cruinnscríobh na Gaeilge
Eagrán nua méadaithe
Ciarán Mac Murchaidh
COIS LIFE, BAILE ÁTHA CLIATH, 2004

quote:

Wrong assumption. Just like in "mo chota-sa" pronoun is emphasized, not noun - then in 'deirir-se" verb is emphasized.

Let's put it this way:
"Just like in mo XXX-sa a pronoun is emphasized - then in YYY-irse YYY is emphasised?"
Really?

quote:

Btw - there is NO pronoun formally in "deirir-se" - therefore that idea is simply illogical

Yes, there is no pronoun.
But there is a person in "deirirse" (marked by -ir) and this person is called "you". And this person is emphasized.

deirirse = deir tusa

Lars

(Message edited by lars on May 30, 2007)

quote:

Goidte as

Cruinnscríobh na Gaeilge
Eagrán nua méadaithe
Ciarán Mac Murchaidh
COIS LIFE, BAILE ÁTHA CLIATH, 2004

Caithfidh mé é sin a fháil! Chuala mé trácht air ach ní raibh a fhios agam céard a bhí ann.