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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 1605 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 07:46 pm: |
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In a sentence such as: Ní dóiche go bhfuil... I haven't been able to find it in any dictionary. -- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú -- Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 08:32 pm: |
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I'd say dócha rendered slender internally to dóiche. Think like amáireach/amárach sometimes there are versions with only the opposite polarity sound differing |
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Domhnall
Member Username: Domhnall
Post Number: 1089 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 05:52 am: |
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Aye, cloisim sin go minic i mBéal Feirste, b'fhéidir nach bhfuil ann ach Gaeilge Uladh do "dócha" A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river
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Maidhc_Ó_g
Member Username: Maidhc_Ó_g
Post Number: 331 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 12:05 pm: |
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The "Focaloir Gaoidhilge Sax Bhéarla", written in 1768 lists dóiche meaning 'hope, confidense'. |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 12:23 pm: |
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Might suggest semantic drift ('in hope that'/'in confidence that') |
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 309 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 01:03 pm: |
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According to Ó Dónaill, dóiche seems to be either a variant spelling of dócha or the comparative of dóigh. (FGB, lch. 428, colún a haon.) Ní dóiche go... It is not probable that... Ní dóiche go... It is no more likely that... (Message edited by Abigail on May 24, 2007) Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Mac_léinn
Member Username: Mac_léinn
Post Number: 574 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 02:55 pm: |
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Scríobh Maidhc quote:The "Focaloir Gaoidhilge Sax Bhéarla", written in 1768 lists dóiche meaning 'hope, confidense'. A Mhaidhc, is this dictionary available online, and if so, could you supply the link? In particular, I'm looking for a possible entry for "cócaireácht," or similar word. Go raibh maith agat, Mac Léinn Cócaireáchta P.S. A chairde, ceist eile: Although we haven't figured out yet what kind of noun "cócaireácht" is, I would like to know if I represented the genitive form correctly above in my pseudonym for the day. That is, "Mac Léinn" is masculine and "cócaireáchta" is feminine. So which of the two words govern whether I need to lenite "cócaireáchta?" Go raibh maith agaibh. (Message edited by mac_léinn on May 24, 2007) Múineann gá seift
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 03:07 pm: |
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 310 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 03:14 pm: |
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Just a note on the spelling: cócaireacht. No lenition needed. Lenition of nouns is always governed by the preceding word - be it noun, article or possessive pronoun. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Mac_léinn
Member Username: Mac_léinn
Post Number: 575 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 03:45 pm: |
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BRN, Go raibh maith agat. I remember visiting the sites, but I didn't download them at the time. Thanks for posting them. I'll take a look at them tonight, since Deartháir Mór blocks access to certain sites, including the ones in your posting above. Go raibh maith agat a Abigail as an ceartúchán. My favorite word (next to eating) and I can't even spell it correctly! . I don't think I'll ever figure out how to construct genitives correctly, as I just realized I'm further confused due to learning something that the rule for lenition as it relates to gender is opposite for genitives as it is for the nominatives. I'll get back to reading, reading, reading (both dictionaries and textbooks) and try to clear up my ever-present confusion. Thanks for the help. Múineann gá seift
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 5426 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 04:11 pm: |
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Having downloaded it, here are the relevant definitions. Cócaire, a cook, Latin infin. coquere Cócaireacht, a cooking, alſo the art thereof. |
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Mac_léinn
Member Username: Mac_léinn
Post Number: 576 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 04:42 pm: |
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Thanks, Aonghus. It looks like that for at least 240 years or so, the Irish have had the word for cooking. And it's also interesting that that dictionary also indicates the root of the word to be Latin and not English. Múineann gá seift
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 5428 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 04:59 pm: |
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I would put cócaireacht at much older than that. Cá bhfuil Dennis nuair atá sé de dhíth orainn? But I couldn't find any trace of it in the manuscripts at Celt. http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G308002/index.html Aislinge Meic Con Glinne is a farce about food, but I can't read it! |
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Mac_léinn
Member Username: Mac_léinn
Post Number: 577 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 06:13 pm: |
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quote:I would put cócaireacht at much older than that. I would speculate that the word cócaireacht entered the Irish language much earlier also. We may never find what that date is, but at some point in history, the concept of "cooking" entered the Irish parlance. It appears that it happened at least 240 years ago. I'm trying to imagine how and when the word entered the Irish language. Was it in the earlier part of the Middle Ages, when Hiberno Latin began, say, around the 7th century, or, since the Irish were already busy frying, boiling, and baking, was it many centuries later that the Irish adopted the Latin-based word for cooking? Múineann gá seift
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 5430 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 05:30 am: |
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I has a look at An Béal Bheo this morning, which bears out my thesis that while cócaireacht is used for cookery, a more specific verb is used for the actual individual acts of cooking. I'll try and expand on this this evening. |
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Bearn (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 07:08 am: |
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Just got Corpas na Gaeilge from Liríocht. dóiche: DÓICHE (1820obc 19T) L145, lch. 21, líne 3 ios cia 'n t-am. /Níorbh é sin dob ait liom-sa a' teacht ráithe an gheimhridh //A bheith déanamh íosbairt istigh ar nio shráid, /'S go mbíonn sé 'na chat is 'na mhadadh san oidhche, /'S nár DHÓICHE 'na Phúca é, ná 'na shean-ghearrán bhán. / /III. / /A chómharsanna dílse tugaidh dhom congnamh, /Agus díbreocha mé an Púca amach as an áit, /Cuirfead faoi gheasa é, is faoi dhaoirse na húmhlac DÓICHE (1902c-68 >19) L132, lch. 29, líne 14 eo a ardú ón bpian tá i mo dhroim; /i bhfad ó mo chairde is gan áit a'm a ligfinn mo scíth, /ach le toil Rí na nGrásta ní bheidh fán orm ach seal is cén bhrí? / /Bhéarfaidh mé móide is é is DÓICHE nach mbrisfidh mé thríd - /i gcomhluadar ban óg go deo deo ní shuífidh mé síos; /'s mé crádh leo i dtús m'óige is i dtosach mo shaoil, /'s iad a sheol ón Abhainn Mhór mé is mhúin dom DÓICHE (1910c >19) L157, lch. 131, líne 5 a). /"Ghlac mé mur gcómhairle le mórán de'n tseóirt sin, /'S ní ghlacfad níos mó de," 'se dubhairt sise liom. /Tá mo uainín gan dóigh, agus ní bhéidh aige a'n deor /Mur bhfághfaidh mise, ar nDÓICHE, ar fud a bhfuil ann. /Ná tógaigidh cionn sorruighim recte sonraithe dhíom anois /go dtí 'n fóghmhar, /Is níor lughaide de mur ndórnán mo shoc a bheith ann; /Is a Pheadair, a stóirín, ná DÓICHE (1915 >19) L157, lch. 83, líne 29 bhar na gcraobh mar éideadh leabtha ós mo /chionn, /Is mo sheacht n-anam déag is tú ag féachaint orm anall. / /V /Do chos deas i mbróig is ba luthmhar achtmhar do shiubhal, /Ní airighim, ar nDÓICHE, nach ró-dheas radharc do shúl, /Níl sé ar an domhan seo seóid ar bith is deise ná thú, /Do ghruaidh mar an rósa, seo póg dhuit is téidh liom /'un siubhail. / //VI /A thaisge 's a stóir I also saw it in one of the Mayo dialect books, but could not find it again |
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