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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through May 04, 2007 » "Níl ach beagán Gaeilge agam." « Previous Next »

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Kimberly
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Username: Kimberly

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 08:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia Duit, cách!
It was kindly brought to my attention that:

Níl ach beagán Gaeilge agam.

might be a better phrase than:

Níl agam ach beagáinín Gaeilge.

Could anyone explain why that might be a better choice?

arís is arís, Go raibh maith agat!

kim

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1514
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 09:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If you were to translate them to "fairytale English", then the former would be:

'Tis only a small bit of Gaeilge that I have

and the latter would be:

I have but a small bit of Gaeilge

I myself prefer the first one, but I can't say which is more appropriate if I'm not given context.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Kimberly
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Username: Kimberly

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 09:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I guess the context would be if am using it as an apology for my atrocious irish.

"sclieann fíon fírinne"

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Tríona (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 01:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I adore modesty. ☺ Bless your heart.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1515
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I guess the context would be if am using it as an apology for my atrocious irish.

Then I'd go with:

Tá brón orm, níl ach beagán Gaolainne agam

More so in Irish than in English, word order is used to focus attention on different parts of the sentence. The following might be a context in which I'd deem the other choice to be appropriate:

-Tá tríocha punt agat.
-Níl agam ach fiche punt!

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 136
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You could also say:

Níl mórán Gaelainne agam.
(I don't speak much Irish.)

As per Pimsleur:
http://www.gaeilge.org/pimsleurtranscript.html

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Faolchú_rua
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Username: Faolchú_rua

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2007


Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 11:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Just to add, since you're a fairly new student:

Gaolainn is how folks who speak Munster Irish say "Gaeilge." If you're learning one of the other dialects, you might want to stick to "Gaeilge," as the other is very much a regional thing. Up to you, though...they mean the same thing.

I'm mentioning this because it confused the heck out of me the first time I encountered Munster Irish, and I want to spare you the confusion!

Faolchú Rua

Is leigheas é an ceol ar an anam briste

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 01:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There are others than Gaelige too

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1519
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 03:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Just to add, since you're a fairly new student:

Gaolainn is how folks who speak Munster Irish say "Gaeilge." If you're learning one of the other dialects, you might want to stick to "Gaeilge," as the other is very much a regional thing. Up to you, though...they mean the same thing.

I'm mentioning this because it confused the heck out of me the first time I encountered Munster Irish, and I want to spare you the confusion!

Faolchú Rua

There are three main dialects of Irish: Ulster, Munster and Connacht. You'll notice that "Standard" isn't in the list.

As far as I know, Connacht people most commonly call it "Gaeilge", Ulster = "Gaeilg", Munster = "Gaolainn". There's no reason to prefer "Gaeilge" over "Gaolainn" -- if anything I'd guess that "Gaolainn" is more common.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Kimberly
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Username: Kimberly

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 01:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

hmmmm.....mearbhallach. i Gaillimh?

"sclieann fíon fírinne"

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Faolchú_rua
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Username: Faolchú_rua

Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2007


Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 01:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ulster folks say "Gaeilge" as well (Ulster is my dialect, by the way). Munster is the only dialect that uses "Gaolainn."

As I said, there's nothing wrong with it, but one should be consistent, and stick to a single dialect. And it's best to specify when using a regional variation, to avoid confusing the newbies, if nothing else.

Faolchú Rua

Is leigheas é an ceol ar an anam briste

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1521
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 08:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

As I said, there's nothing wrong with it, but one should be consistent, and stick to a single dialect.

Kinda difficult when a dialect is merely an approximation -- every person speaks differently. Even within a certain area there's different dialects spoken among different social and economic classes. Would you really bat an eyelid if someone said "ain't" in your part of the world? (That's assuming "ain't" isn't a part of your dialect)

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Faolchú_rua
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Username: Faolchú_rua

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2007


Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 10:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

All I'm saying is that it's confusing for newbies to hear a different version of the name of the language than that to which they're accustomed without some form of explanation. Unless they're learning from Pimsleur, or in Munster, most learners are going to be learning to call the language "An Ghaeilge." All I did was tell Kimberly that "Gaolainn" is a name used for the language in Munster, since she's said outright that she's new to the language. I'm not quite sure why you're taking offense at someone helping out a learner with some of the terminology.

While I wouldn't bat an eye at someone using "ain't" (or to use more regional expressions, "might could" or "y'all,") if I were to use them around a learner of English, I would also explain that they ARE regional expressions, as hearing something other than what they are accustomed to could be confusing to them..

Faolchú Rua

Is leigheas é an ceol ar an anam briste

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 139
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't think Fear na mBróg is taking offense to anything that you are saying; he is just (correctly) pointing out that "Gaeilge" is as much a regional variation as "Gaolainn/Gaelainn". Whichever word happens to be more common is irrelevant and does not detract one bit from the truth of what he is saying.

It does come across as a bit arrogant (though I recognise that it was unintentional) to label the word Gaolainn as "very much a regional thing" as opposed to "Gaeilge". In fact, all dialects of Irish are, of course, regional by defintion and of equal merit.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1522
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 11:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's been said before: "A language is a dialect with an army".

What is the Standard supposed to be?! Is it supposed to be a guideline which dictates how people speak and write the Irish language? Well if so, then it's a drastic failure because native speakers speak the way that comes natural to them, and learners aim to mimic native speakers.

If that's not its purpose then what is it? Is it supposed to be a guide for learning the language? Well if so then it's a drastic failure if it tells everyone that the language is called "Gaeilge" and doesn't give any popular alternative names -- that would be like me teaching English and saying the future tense is "will" without spending ten seconds talking about "shall". Then when they hear "shall" their brain will freeze... then people will argue that "shall" is a "dialectal variation" that shouldn't be used because it isn't immortalised in the Standard. Bullshit.

The Standard is a pile of shit as far as I'm concerned.

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on April 30, 2007)

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1523
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 11:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

It does come across as a bit arrogant (though I recognise that it was unintentional) to label the word Gaolainn as "very much a regional thing" as opposed to "Gaeilge". In fact, all dialects of Irish are, of course, regional by defintion and of equal merit.

I have a challenge: Find me something, in any language of your choice, that isn't regional.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 140
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 12:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fear na mBróg,

I'm glad I happened to catch your last message before going off-line for the day. I find myself unwilling to accept your challenge, as I am already in agreement with what you are saying!

It could be argued that there are some forms of speech in English that are more characteristic of social class rather than region. That is not the case with the Irish language, to the best of my knowledge.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1524
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 12:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I can only speak two languages, Irish and English, but from my experience I see that the "Standard" in any language tends to be a psuedo-dialect which is practised by a pretentious, pompous few.

Is there any living dialect of English that actually says "whom"? I know there are people who say "whom", but are these people just the pretentious few who subscribe to a "Standard" which is in effect a "non-existant dialect which is exhaulted above all living dialects"? Is there anyone that says "whom" naturally, anyone who hasn't seen it in a book and studied it in aspiration to speak like a arogant ponse?

Even though "whom" only exists in the vast minority of dialects of English, it is still part of the Standard. Today in 2007, if you teach English as a foreign language, then you should make very clear that the accusative case of "who" is "who", and that "whom" is more of fairytale thing.

Not only should the Standard be avoided because it is not a real dialect, it should also be avoided because it is far less expressive and colourful than a living dialect. For instance, in the Queen's English, the pronouns get the same pronunciation regardless of the context... while in all other dialects, the pronunciation of the prounouns varie according to the context.

I don't see why people pay any attention to the Standard. . . ?

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5218
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 03:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge: An Caighdeán Oifigiúl (1979)

It is a written standard, and was never intended to replace how people in the Gaeltacht speak. And it is significantly less restrictive than people make out.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1525
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 06:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is it really that necessary though? I mean you don't have to be an absolute wizard at Irish to see that "buí" and "buidhe" are the same word. . .

The problem with this "Standard" is that people are treating it like the Queen's English, saying that anything different from it is "improper" and a "regional variant". When I was at school, I was thought the past tense as "cheap mé", but not "cheapas". This is akin to an English teacher teaching "will" but not "shall"... which of course is utterly stupid.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 09:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

While we're at it, why don't we do away with all orthographic standards as well.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5222
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 05:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The problem with this "Standard" is that people are treating it like the Queen's English, saying that anything different from it is "improper" and a "regional variant"



The problem then is the people, not the standard!
The standard itself explicitly refutes this claim.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1526
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 06:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I wanna talk about the Standard then, for those who are interested. Let's decide on what a standard should be allowed to do. Maybe standardisation of spelling is acceptable? The Standard tells us to spell "buidhe" and "comhnaidhe" as "buí" and "cónaí"... not too much of a problem there (but at the same time there's no real requirement for it). The spelling standardisation did go a little too far in some places places, as is the case with "nua" (the feminine genitive of which is "nuaí"). But at the same time, who really cares if someone writes "aríst" rather than "arís"?

What a standard shouldn't be allowed to do though is restrict the language which can be used; I mean it would be ludicrous if someone brought out an English standard which used "shall" entirely for the future tense and basically out-lawed the use of "will".

I don't use the word "Gaeilge" anymore because it feels unnatural to me -- I've heard "Gaolainn" said by native speakers and I've picked up on it.

quote:

While we're at it, why don't we do away with all orthographic standards as well.

I thought we made it cumpolsory to enter a name so that jackasses like this couldn't throw in one anonymous comment and then fade back into the background?

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1527
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 06:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I've overlooked one of the most important things: The Caighdeán shouldn't restrict the writing of "cheapas" in the place of "cheap mé". It's all too easy to declare them to be "region-specific variations" and be done with them.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Faolchú_rua
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Username: Faolchú_rua

Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2007


Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 08:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So you're saying that we should just let new learners be confused, rather than explain why someone is using a term they may be unfamiliar with? That seems more arrogant to me than the use of the term "regional variant."

Personally, I think that simply saying "Gaolainn" when others have offered Gaeilge (without offering an explanation) sounds like one is correcting the use of "Gaeilge" by the others.

Whatever one may think of the standard, the bottom line is that most learners, especially those who are self-teaching and not in Ireland, have learned "Gaeilge" as the name of the language, and are likely to be confused if confronted with something different unless a friendly explanation is offered. What's wrong with explaining up front that there are regional variations? If someone were to ask if "cad é mar atá tú" meant "how are you, wouldn't you explain that there are different ways they're likely to hear it, based on where in the country they happen to be, and that "cad é mar atá tú" is the form favored in Ulster? Or would you just let them flounder in confusion the first time they encountered "cén chaoi a bhfuil tú"?

Faolchú Rua

Faolchú Rua

(Message edited by faolchú_rua on May 01, 2007)

Is leigheas é an ceol ar an anam briste

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1528
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 08:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

So you're saying that we should just let new learners be confused, rather than explain why someone is using a term they may be unfamiliar with? That seems more arrogant to me than the use of the term "regional variant."

Exactly! Since when is a language about learners? Since when do we tell people to stop saying "shall" or "wuda" or "ain't" just because learners don't understand them?! If an Irish language course doesn't teach that "cheapas" is "cheap mé", then the course should be renamed to "Irish Language course (...except you won't understand a hell of a lot of people, particularly those from Munster)".

quote:

Personally, I think that simply saying "Gaolainn" when others have offered Gaeilge (without offering an explanation) sounds like one is correcting the use of "Gaeilge" by the others.

The person who posed the initial question is human -- if they're curious about "Gaolainn" then all they need do is ask, but I'm not about to filter, water-down or dumb-down my own Gaolainn just so their brain doesn't have a hiccup every now and again.

quote:

Whatever one may think of the standard, the bottom line is that most learners, especially those who are self-teaching and not in Ireland, have learned "Gaeilge" as the name of the language, and are likely to be confused if confronted with something different unless a friendly explanation is offered.

Not really... I heard "Gaolainn" for the first time in County Waterford and it was pretty obvious from the context that the word was synonymous with "Gaeilge".

quote:

What's wrong with explaining up front that there are regional variations?

Calling them "regional variations"! If someone asks me what "shall" means, I'm gonna say "It's another word for will in the future tense", I'm not gonna say that's it's a regional variant of "will" native to the Queen's English.

quote:

If someone were to ask if "cad é mar atá tú" meant "how are you, wouldn't you explain that there are different ways they're likely to hear it, based on where in the country they happen to be, and that "cad é mar atá tú" is the form favored in Ulster?

I might brush upon the fact that it's fairly common in Ulster, but there's no need to associate it with one particular place... because as we all know everyone speaks their own mini-dialect which may contain features found all over the country.

quote:

Or would you just let them flounder in confusion the first time they encountered "cén chaoi a bhfuil tú"?

That sentence isn't an idiom, it can be understand from the grammar and words alone... I'd spend time teaching the actual language to them if they have trouble with "Cen chaoi ina bhfuil tú?".

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5224
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 10:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ar léigh tú teideal an chláir seo le deanaí?

Ní "Saoithe sotalacha na Gaeilge" atá scríofa ann!

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 141
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 03:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

If you're learning one of the other dialects, you might want to stick to "Gaeilge," as the other is very much a regional thing.

So you're saying that we should just let new learners be confused, rather than explain why someone is using a term they may be unfamiliar with? That seems more arrogant to me than the use of the term "regional variant."

Personally, I think that simply saying "Gaolainn" when others have offered Gaeilge (without offering an explanation) sounds like one is correcting the use of "Gaeilge" by the others.



Faolchú Rua,

I think that those statements, perhaps, do not come across well to somebody who happens to speak, or is learning, the Munster dialect, i.e., "the other". Of course, I realize that your intention was to be helpful and I commend you for that. Far from being "arrogant", I believe Fear na mBróg's (and my) use of the word Gaolainn (without explanation!) to be acceptable. I certainly would not require an explanation of anyone who chose to write the word "Gaeilge". In a later post, F na mB did, in fact, write an even-handed and helpful explanation of the regional use of the words Gaolainn, Gaeilg, and Gaeilge.

As Aonghus mentioned earlier, An Caighdeán Oifigiúl was devised as a written standard; however I think it's okay to feel comfortable using non-"official" spelling, especially when a word is rendered more intelligible (in the dialect that it was written in, at least) by a more traditional orthographical variant as in the case of Gaolainn/Gaelainn. I, for one, would begin to feel a bit marginalized , were I to feel the need to explain or justify the use of a word or spelling that I happen to use that is now considered to be non-"Official Standard". I'm sure that you would agree with me when I say that anyone who chooses to learn a spoken dialect of Irish, rather than "Official Standard", should feel comfortable writing and conversing in their chosen dialect.

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 506
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 03:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Fhaolchú Rua, you did well by initially pointing out that Gaolainn is a regional variation. I wish I had heard that bit of advice before studying the Pimsleur tapes. I thought I was losing my hearing everytime they said Gaolainn instead of Gaeilge.

Any variation in the written or spoken language is exactly that. I think some folks get upset for no reason when this obvious point is made, since they misconstrue that those that point out regional variations are by necessity, die-hard, anti-dialectical demons, looking to eliminate all variations and impose An Caighdean Oifigiúil upon eveyone. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, I find that most, if not all people who embrace the Official Standard do it for the sole purpose of uniting the dialects, giving them a common base so to speak. The Irish language is in desperate need of all the unifying support it can get. And by the same token, the dialects need to flourish independently, which is obvious to anyone who travels to the Gaeltachts, listens to RTE, watches TG4, or attends any Irish-language course. They all full of dialectical variations, yet the Official Standard is there to maintain a common base.

quote:

Calling them "regional variations"! If someone asks me what "shall" means, I'm gonna say "It's another word for will in the future tense", I'm not gonna say that's it's a regional variant of "will" native to the Queen's English.



It's time to revisit the basic meanings of shall and will. There are differences in their meanings. But of course, they'll probably just be dismissed as non-creative Queen's English coming into play. I "shall" be prepared.

Múineann gá seift

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1531
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 05:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

A Fhaolchú Rua, you did well by initially pointing out that Gaolainn is a regional variation. I wish I had heard that bit of advice before studying the Pimsleur tapes. I thought I was losing my hearing everytime they said Gaolainn instead of Gaeilge.

Oh God we've learned nothing.

quote:

Any variation in the written or spoken language is exactly that.

But a variation from what? "Gaeilge" is just as much a variation from "Gaolainn" as "Gaolainn" is from "Gaeilge".

quote:

I think some folks get upset for no reason when this obvious point is made, since they misconstrue that those that point out regional variations are by necessity, die-hard, anti-dialectical demons, looking to eliminate all variations and impose An Caighdean Oifigiúil upon eveyone.

There's no such thing as regional variations. Either that or everything is a regional variation.

quote:

Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, I find that most, if not all people who embrace the Official Standard do it for the sole purpose of uniting the dialects, giving them a common base so to speak. The Irish language is in desperate need of all the unifying support it can get.

Oh good Christ... if such unity was needed then they'd be called separate languages, not dialects of the same language. Do you speak English? Can you understand an Irish man speaking English, or a South African woman, or a Jamaican man? If not then it's time we declared them to be speaking a different language.

quote:

And by the same token, the dialects need to flourish independently, which is obvious to anyone who travels to the Gaeltachts, listens to RTE, watches TG4, or attends any Irish-language course. They all full of dialectical variations, yet the Official Standard is there to maintain a common base.

But the only problem with that is that there's no such thing as the Standard. Where is it spoken and by whom? Where exactly in the country would you hear "sa siúcra" and "sa tsráid" in the same sentence. . . ? I'll give you a clue: Nowhere.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Mura mbíonn téarma Gaeilge agaibh ar rud éigin, bígí cruthaitheach! Ná téigí i muinín focail Bhéarla a úsáid, údar truaillithe é sin dod chuid cainte.

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Mac_léinn
Member
Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 508
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 08:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Fear: Oh G*d........Oh good Chr*st..... one more religious expletive and you'd have had the whole blessed Trinity!

Unlike the English language, the Irish language is in a state of re-habilitation and it's just not feasible to educate and disseminate information en masse in three different dialects. Isn't that obvious to everyone? Hence the need for a standard. By the way, English has a standard also as do most languages. Just open an English dictionary and you'll see what I mean. Don't get offended when you do open the dictionary and it considers that ole' favorite of yours, "ain't" as a variation.

There's probably more people speaking the Official Standard than there are cumulatively people speaking the separate dialects.

Múineann gá seift

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 280
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 09:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Just a couple of points:

(1) The Caighdeán does not address pronunciation at all, so "speaking" it is a bit of an impossibility. Even if someone's grammar is pure Caighdeán their pronunciation will necessarily reflect a dialect or a more-or-less individual mixture of dialects.

(2) People naturally like to write the way they talk, so the normal consequence of (1) is that people will write a more-or-less dialectal form of written Irish, unless constrained to do otherwise (perhaps by teachers, employers, editors, or just a personal fascination with standardization.)

(3) Learning the Caighdeán - and becoming fluent in it - may seem easier at first, but it's ultimately much harder than learning a dialect. This is because you don't have native speakers to learn from. Everything you hear in casual speech, you have to try and filter for dialect bias instead of just soaking it up. Been there, done that, and I can tell you my Irish made (comparative) leaps and bounds once I stopped.

(4) This is just a personal observation, and my experience isn't terribly broad - but most of the fluent or native non-Gaeltacht Irish speakers I know speak and write dialectal Irish in an informal context. They seem to reserve the Caighdeán mostly for (a) translation, academic writing and public speaking; (b) communication with learners whose teacher may be using a different dialect.

(5) Dialects aren't near the impediment to communication that they're sometimes made out to be! (I'm not talking about this thread specifically, but attitudes in general.) They're primarily a problem for us learners. When I hear a fluent Connemara speaker talking to a fluent Munster speaker they may slow down a little bit, or somebody may occasionally have to repeat something. That's all. Nobody has to resort to hand gestures, and nobody has to switch to the Caighdeán either.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Mac_léinn
Member
Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 509
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Abigreal: 3) Learning the Caighdeán - and becoming fluent in it - may seem easier at first, but it's ultimately much harder than learning a dialect

Yes, the best point you've made above, and I hope Fear feels the same. The most important part of the Irish language is any of its dialects. The only thing the Standard does is somehow try to bring them together. Maybe what we should be discussing is how to make the Standard better, if that's possible.

I think all your points above Abigail are valid and well thought out, especially your remarks about informal Irish. I think it's important to differentiate between spoken and written Irish.

Múineann gá seift

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yo (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 07:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Could I suggest the us eof 'protocols'? That is, a series of rules for a dialect that select certain forms and rules for a standard with the explicit understanding that the native varities are for speaking?

To that end, you could have 'standard protocols' or 'learner protocols' and so on

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Kimberly
Member
Username: Kimberly

Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 02:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

wow. cant we all just get along! :)

I appreciate everyone's comments, because somewhere in the middle is probably the truth.

I personally feel that it is important to have a standard in a language. Like it was inferred by some, this is not just for new learners or pretentious people. In academia there is a great deal of writing. But my experience has shown that if a standard is not used in academic writing, then there can be know way of properly evaluating a wide range of academic thought in relation to eachother. This, I am sure, can sound pretentious, but spoken language is a whole different can of worms!

For example, Panamanians are educated in an American English standard. However, since English is not spoken outside of the classroom, most people from Panama have trouble with conversational English.

I contend that learning a standard and regional form of Irish is important to truly understanding the written and the spoken language. I might be able to learn a standard and inturn comprehend different texts, but real spoken conversation skills would come from being immersed in a gaeilge speaking area.

"sclieann fíon fírinne"



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