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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through May 04, 2007 » The Ogham Writing Style « Previous Next »

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 493
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 10:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I looking to gain a basic understanding of the Ogham writing style. I find the rune marks used in Ogham to be so different than the characters used in our modern day English alphabet, but by the same token, they seem to share an important and common feature that define alphabets. That is, each letter, represents a sound, as opposed to pictographs which are more of visualy representation of a word, not a particular sound. I understand that each "letter" also represented a tree, but that's besides the point in regard to this posting.(Please correct the preceding thought if it is wrong, thanks)

In an earlier, thread we were discussing the word "bó" and in origins. Lughaidh and Aonghus pointed ou that it is most likely of Indo-European descent. Here's some info I found in my research of Bó's possible Ogham/Indo-European connection. The following is an excerpt from http://www.legendarytours.com/tain.html


There are other táinte -- Táin Bó Froích, Táin Bó Dartada, Táin Bó Flidais, Táin Bó Regamna, Táin Bó Aingen, Táin Bó Munad, Táin Bó Ros, Táin Bó Ruanadh, Táin Bó Sailin, and Táin Bó Erc -- but the Táin Bó Cuailnge is the only one called The Táin. It is the oldest vernacular epic in European literature; i.e., written in the language of the people, not the classical language, as were, for example, Homer's epics. Some of the language and forms in the manuscripts are very old, reflecting the fact that the Táin was probably first written down as early as the seventh century.

So, with so many mentions of the word "bó" in the excerpt above, I would think there may be some positive evidence of "bó" existing in the written language of the time.

What language was used in writing down the Táin? It couldn't be Latin, could it? Or was it Ogham?

I could only find negative evidence in my search for the Ogham representation of Bó, but the search continues.

May the road rise to meet you.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5188
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 06:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You have also provided us with evidence that Bó covers Tarbh!

Tain Bó Cuailgne is about the theft of a bull.

Ogham on stones was mostly used for short inscriptions such as "Or do Mac Léinn" (Or do = guí do) on gravestones.

Irish was an oral tradition for a long time; Irish/Celtic scholars were famous for not writing things down - see Caesar.

Writing in Ireland was first Greek and Latin, then Irish (came in with Christianity).

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 494
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 09:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You have also provided us with evidence that Bó covers Tarbh!

It dawned on me in our earlier thread that "bó" means both the female and males of the bovine species, where as I think most Americans think of a cow (bó) as an animal on dairy farm.

Ogham on stones was mostly used for short inscriptions such as "Or do Mac Léinn" (Or do = guí do) on gravestones.

The purest of pure speculation on my part, but is it possible that the prevailing perspective that you mention above is only due to the fact of the remaining evidence is only on gravestones and the like? Is it possible that Irish/Celtic scholars wrote more than short inscriptions, possible on papyrus, etc, and the evidence has been lost over time?


What little Irish-language history books that I have seem to indicate that Primitive Irish was written in Ogham and that Old Irish was written in Latin.

May the road rise to meet you.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5192
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 10:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

that Old Irish was written in Latin.



Huh? Do you mean the Roman alphabet i.e the one we are now using?

There are stories referring to Ogham being usied for writing on birch rods; but I am not aware than any were ever found.

As far as I know there are some ogham inscriptions in Latin - the timeframes overlap.

Pre Christianity, education was purely and deliberatly oral.

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Mac_léinn
Member
Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 497
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 10:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here's a link to information regarding Ogham being used to write test in Old Irish:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/ogham.html

I was using the term Primitive Irish to denote the Irish in existence before the introduction of the Roman alphabet i.e the one we are using now, which denotes the beginning of the Old Irish era. I found the term Primitive Irish on one web site that used it in such a fashion.

May the road rise to meet you.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5193
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 03:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You will need finely tuned bualtrach detector when looking at websites about that period in Irish history.

So little is known about the period that all sorts of new age neo pagan created myths abound on the Internet.

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Mac_léinn
Member
Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 498
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 03:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So little is known about the period that all sorts of new age neo pagan created myths abound on the Internet.

Tuigim. Tá me ag tosú é sin a fheicáil.

May the road rise to meet you.



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