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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (May-June) » Archive through May 04, 2007 » The word 'mara' and the right usage of tense. « Previous Next »

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Angmar
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Username: Angmar

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 02:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes I'm back and with some more questions!!!

I'm now at lesson 8 of Learning Irish and I'm somewhat confused about what tenses to use with the word 'mara'.

For example in the translation exercise in No.9 it says:

-If the house isn't beside the school, Ruairí will be bad-hummoured.
-Mara mbeidh an teach in aice leis an scoil, beidh Ruairí cantalach.

Shouln't it be written instead:
-Mara bhfuil an teach in aice leis an scoil, beidh Ruairí cantalach.

So the question is, when am I suppose to use 'bhfuil' and 'mbeidh' with the word 'mara'? Are they perhaps interchangeable?

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Mickrua
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Username: Mickrua

Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 02:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

M-U-R-A a ba cheart a bheith scríofa ansin.
Má/Más = (iF ) foirm dearfach agus an foirm diúltach = Mura ( Muna) : (If not)

Tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh sé seo cúnamh duit !

(Message edited by Mickrua on April 14, 2007)

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 105
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 05:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

when am I suppose to use 'bhfuil' and 'mbeidh' with the word 'mara'? Are they perhaps interchangeable?


In future tense mbeidh, in present tense bhfuil. :-)

From a logical point of view, present tense should be OK here, because the house is or is not near the school already even if Ruairí will recognize this fact only in the future.
In English you would probably use present tense (present tense is often used instead of future tense in English).
But in Irish they are normally not interchangeable. Perhaps there is a trend to use future tense in protasis (i.e "if ...") if the apodosis ("then ...") is also future tense to show a coincidence of both.

And last but not least this exercise is probably only there to teach you to say "mara mbeidh" (but "má bhíonn") in future tense.

BTW: Standard Irish is "mura = if not"

Lars

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1615
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A MhickRua, tá Learning Irish scríofa i nGaeilg Chois Fhairrge, sin a’ fáth a bhfuil foirmeanacha neamhchaighdeánacha le fáilt ann: mara in áit mura agus cuid mhaith rudaí eile mar sin fosta.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Angmar
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Username: Angmar

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 06:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hey thanks guys!

So if I understand correctly, there is no such distinction between present and futur when the verb 'bí' is used with 'má'. 'Má bhíonn' would then encompass both tense meanings. However with the word 'mara' (or 'mura') this distinction is needed in Irish.

Did I get that correctly??



Also, that being said, I have one more question. Can there be a habitual/non-habitual distinction with the verb 'bí' when preceded by 'mara' or 'má'? If so, how is it expressed in Irish?

Bye!

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 106
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 07:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

So if I understand correctly, there is no such distinction between present and futur when the verb 'bí' is used with 'má'. 'Má bhíonn' would then encompass both tense meanings. However with the word 'mara' (or 'mura') this distinction is needed in Irish.

Did I get that correctly??


No, not very correctly ;-)
Future tense is never used after "má" (and after "cha", BTW), irrespective of which verb is following. Instead of future tense the present habitual tense is used.

má théann sé anocht = if he will go tonight
(not: má rachaidh sé anocht)
má bhíonn sé ann amárach = if he will be there tomorrow
(not: má bheidh sé ann amárach)

Of course, present habituial tense is used with present habitual meaning, too:
má théann sé i gconaí = if he always goes
má bhíonn sé ann go minic = if he is often there

After "mura" (or mara) you would use future tense with future meaning:
mura rachaidh sé anocht = if he won't go tonight
mura mbeidh sé ann amárach = if he won't be there tomorrow

And you would use present habitual tense only with present habitual meaning:
mura dtéann sé i gconaí = if he doesn't always go
mura mbíonn sé ann go minic = if he isn't often there

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on April 16, 2007)

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Angmar
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Username: Angmar

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 12:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Or I'm very confused or you misunderstood me. I'll try to make myself a bit clearer.

quoting Lars: Future tense is never used after "má" (and after "cha", BTW), irrespective of which verb is following. Instead of future tense the present habitual tense is used.

(sorry BTW, I can't figure out how to quote properly)

But, isn't that what I was saying? From what I had understood, after 'Má' the verb is always in the habitual present although it may in some cases actually have a future meaning. Thus it can carry both future and present habitual tense meaning depending on the context. This would in fact be similar to English where the present tense is always used regardless of whether it actually has a future tense meaning (e.g.: if he is there tomorrow, she will be happy). That’s why I said that 'Má bhíonn' could encompass both tense meanings. I didn't at all mean to say that 'bheidh' could be used with 'Má'. A misunderstanding maybe or...?

As for the second question I had, I'm guessing from seeing some of these forms in LI that you would say 'mara bhfuil', 'mara raibh', 'má tá' and 'má bhí' for non habitual meaning?
Is that correct?

Slán!

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 01:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Má tá tú amach anois... if you're out now...
Má bhíonn tú amach gach lá... if you are out every day...

Mara bhfuil tú amach anois... if you aren't out now...
Mara mbíonn tú... if you aren't (habitually)...

Má bhí tú sa mbaile inné... If you were at home yesterday
Má bhídís anseo... If they used to be here...

Mara raibh sé... if he was...
Mara mbíodh sé... if he used to be...

However, as far as I know, the past forms aren't used with a hypothetical meaning (e.g. if you were at home now I'd show you ...) in Irish. You use the conditional when talking about hypothetical situations, and má is replaced with d(h)á: dá mbeifeá sa mbaile anois, thaspáinnfinn ...

Daithí

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Mac_léinn
Member
Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 468
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 01:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

(sorry BTW, I can't figure out how to quote properly)

Feic: http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=formatting

You'll see an example for quoting under miscellaneous.

Is snáithe an suimiúil é seo. Bainim sult as.

May the road rise to meet you.

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 107
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 02:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

But, isn't that what I was saying? From what I had understood, after 'Má' the verb is always in the habitual present although it may in some cases actually have a future meaning.Thus it can carry both future and present habitual tense meaning depending on the context.


Yes, you did say that. But you focussed on the verb "bí"
("there is no such distinction between present and futur when the verb 'bí' is used with 'má'.")
I tried to say that it doesn't matter which verb
follows.
quote:

This would in fact be similar to English where the present tense is always used regardless of whether it actually has a future tense meaning (e.g.: if he is there tomorrow, she will be happy). That’s why I said that 'Má bhíonn' could encompass both tense meanings. I didn't at all mean to say that 'bheidh' could be used with 'Má'. A misunderstanding maybe or...?


No, no. I understood that. You didn't mean that.
But again, you focussed on "bí". That's why I responded
"irrespective of which verb is following"
And that's why I gave these examples: "má théann sé, mura rachaidh sé = if he will (not) go".

(BTW sometimes present subjunctive is used instead of indicative future tense following "mura:
mura dté sé = If he won't go
But this may lead way too far)

quote:

As for the second question I had, I'm guessing from seeing some of these forms in LI that you would say 'mara bhfuil', 'mara raibh', 'má tá' and 'má bhí' for non habitual meaning?
Is that correct?


Yes, that's correct.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on April 20, 2007)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5146
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 04:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Má tá tú amach amuigh anois.

amach/isteach imply movement

An bhfuil tú ag dul amach?
Tá!
Cá bhfuil tú anois?
Amuigh!

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Angmar
Member
Username: Angmar

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 06:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hey thanks everyone!!

quote:

No, no. I understood that. You didn't mean that.
But again, you focussed on "bí". That's why I responded
"irrespective of which verb is following"



Seems as though I was the one misunderstanding !
As for the fact that I focused only on "bí", I didn't actually know that this applied to other verbs as well.

quote:

And that's why I gave these examples: "má théann sé, mura rachaidh sé = if he will (not) go".



Well, unfortunately I'm quite a beginner still in Irish and the only verbal constructions I really know right now are for the verb "bí". That’s maybe why I didn't quite get what you really meant. Again, thank you very much for your reply Lars!

Also, I have one more question concerning this. In lesson 9 of my book I noticed something peculiar in the text exercises. It says:

B’fhéidir go mbeifeása thú féin anseo an bhliain seo chugainn?
Maybe you yourself will be here next week?

Má bhíonn an aimsir go maith, b’fhéidir go mbeadh lá deas eile ag na gasúir an tseachtain seo chugainn.
If the weather is good, perhaps the children will have another nice day next week.

Now my question is, why is the conditional used in these sentences to express future meaning? In what situations does this apply? Why isn’t the form "go mbeidh" used instead? I’m guessing it must have to do maybe with the word "b’fhéidir" but I wouldn’t know. Can someone perhaps explain me this?

Slán!

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 05:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

B'fheidir contains the conditional form of the copula (ba) and you have to use the conditional instead of future after it. You'd also use past forms instead the present ones, I guess...
Compare:

Beidh lá deas againn amárach. We're going to have a nice day tomorrow.
B'fheidir go mbeadh lá deas againn amárach. lit. 'It might be possible that we'd have a nice day tomorrow.'
Bíonn lá deas acu gach Domhnach. They have a nice day every Sunday.
B'fhéidir go mbíodh lá deas acu... Perhaps they have... I'm not quite sure of this however.
Daithí

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 108
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Now my question is, why is the conditional used in these sentences to express future meaning?


Well, lots of things don't rely on only one single condition.
"Má bhíonn an aimsir go maith", if the weather is good, there is only the opportunity to have a nice day. Maybe or maybe not.
Perhaps they won't have a nice day because of other circumstances: Because their mothers are mad at them, because their bikes are broken, because a accident happens, etc.

Irish conditional has another meaning, not only "would" but "could".
They could perhaps have a nice day if the weather is good.
quote:

B’fhéidir go mbeifeása thú féin anseo an bhliain seo chugainn?
Maybe you yourself will be here next week?


(an bhliain seo chugainn = next year)
It's the same as above: "Perhaps you could be yourself here next year"
(BTW: In my German copy of Learning Irish there is: "B'fhéidir go mbeidh tusa thú féin ann ...")

Slán
Lars

(Message edited by lars on April 24, 2007)



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