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Chanster411
Member Username: Chanster411
Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 04:51 pm: |
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Can someone please provide a phonetic translation for the song Suibne? Thanks. You can e-mail it to me if you would like at (Message edited by chanster411 on April 06, 2007) |
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Ceolmhar
Member Username: Ceolmhar
Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:46 pm: |
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Does the 'b' have a dot above it? If so, it would be written 'Suibhne' and pronouced 'swee neh' or even 'swiv neh'. At a guess, it would be the Irish equivilent of the surname Sweeney? No roads were elevated during the composition of this message.
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Chanster411
Member Username: Chanster411
Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 01:47 am: |
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well, the title on the sheet music i have says Shivna, but when i listened to the song i heard them saying that where Suibne was written. i really need a phonetic translation for the whole song though. |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 06:37 am: |
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"A Bhennáin, a bhúiredáin, a bhéichdáin bhinn Is bhinn linn in cúicherán do ní tú `sin ghlinn A dhraignéin, a dhelgnacháin (dil, dol, doh, roh day) A mhinéin na chonaire(dil, dol, doh, ray) A dhriséoc, a dhruiimnechóc (dil, dol, doh, roh day) A chaillech, a chuirrechennach in raga for ech ? Is mé suibhne sirthechán; lúath reithim thar gleann; Nochan é màinm dligthechán; mó is ainm dam Fer Benn" What century is this Gaelic from? Is 'for' a preposition? I think a) you've been caught b) it should be first translated into something contemporary first, then done to English |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1598 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 02:23 pm: |
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I'd say it's Middle Irish, but Dennis will answer better than me ! Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 5090 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:55 pm: |
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Suibhne Geilt/Mad Sweeney atá i gceist. We had a thread on this song some time ago. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 5092 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 01:27 pm: |
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http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T302018/ the whole thing in english and the original http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G302018/index.html scaip riverdance an scéal, is cosúil. look for pg 65 in the english. |
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Chanster411
Member Username: Chanster411
Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 02:07 pm: |
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ok people, thanks very much for all of you help, but what i need is a phonetic translation. i don't need the actual words to the song or the english translation. i've got the sheet music with the words on it, i have to sing it for a class, but i don't know how to pronounce the words. if you've ever read through a textbook for a class and there was a difficult word they usually put in parentheses() how to pronounce it...i need that part so i can pronounce the words. thanks so much for all your help though, and thanks to anyone who can help me with this. |
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Chanster411
Member Username: Chanster411
Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 02:09 pm: |
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THE TITLE ON THE SHEET MUSIC IS SHIVNA, AND THE WORD THEY HAVE IN THE SONG IS SPELLED SUIBNE...NO "H" |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 03:45 pm: |
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"don't know how to pronounce the words" None of us were alive centuries ago, so we dont know. The idea of singing in English such a song is hilarious. Many of the words are now shortened; some of them no doubt were different even when it was written, as the orthography might have been artificial. I dont think scribal standard middle Irish ever really existed as a real spoken form. "SUIBNE...NO "H"" Well it has a bh in speech, that's what people mean. bh here would be like v, not b, that's for sure. "a phonetic translation" The best you can home for is a broader phonological one, and based on that, some sort of newspaper phonetics. However, it will bear little relation to the original. IT is a very specialist answer to a simple question. Since the Riverdance people hardly bothered to do historic dectective work, I'd say they just read it in situ. Noone will notice the difference |
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Wee_falorie_man
Member Username: Wee_falorie_man
Post Number: 133 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 04:58 pm: |
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I happen to know a native speaker from Munster whose last name is Suibhne. To my ear, he says his name something like, "SEE-nyi" - with the stress on the first syllable and maybe a very slight "uh" sound after the "S" and before the "EE" sound. The "e" at the end of his name is pronounced somewhat like the "i" sound in the word "bit". Of course, my friend speaks Modern Irish, so I have no idea how his name would have been pronounced centuries ago in Middle Irish. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1602 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 06:04 pm: |
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"bh" is often not pronounced between vowels in Munster Irish, that's why they say "Suíne" for "Suibhne". In the other provinces, people would pronounce the bh: /siv'n'@/. Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm
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Scathach
Member Username: Scathach
Post Number: 83 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 06:29 pm: |
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Lughaidh, Tá an caid agat ar an bpoínte sin. Ar aon nós, beannachtaí na Cásca oraibh go léir. Go mbeirfimid beo ag an am seo arís, le cúnamh Dé. |
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Wee_falorie_man
Member Username: Wee_falorie_man
Post Number: 134 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 08:16 pm: |
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Go raibh maith agat, a Lughaidh! Your post was informative, as always. |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 06:38 am: |
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OK, in the name of 'service' here is an attempt at the first verse! ah vennawn, ah woorrdawin, ah vayiksahdawn vinn as vinn lyin ah kooikszrawnn da nyi too syin ylyinn ə vʲan̪ˠɑːn, ə βuːɼəd̪ˠɑːn/ βuːrd̪ˠɑːn, a v΄eːçəd̪ˠɑːn v΄iɲ əs̪ˠ v΄iɲ ʎiɲ ən kˠuːçɼːɑːn̪ˠ d̪ˠə ɲiː t̪ˠuː ʃʲ̪iɲ jʎiɲ As you can see, English is not suitable for a transcription -to top it up, once an american mouth sings it... |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 06:47 pm: |
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"bh" is often not pronounced between vowels in Munster Irish, that's why they say "Suíne" for "Suibhne". In the other provinces, people would pronounce the bh: /siv'n'@/ Irish must tend to shifting sounds up the hierarcy of sonorancy, or at least a certain distance; 'friction' sounds (fricatives) like bh, f, th, h (in Conemara) gh, ch seem to wear away between vowels all the time (lam -->lámh -->lá; maith -->ma; deartháir -->dreár) |
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Hscottgraves
Member Username: Hscottgraves
Post Number: 13 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 04:30 pm: |
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A chara Chanster411, I'm having trouble finding a recording of this via Google or Amazon US. I half wonder if forum folks on trad or folk sites like http://www.mudcat.org/ might be of some help. I did a search their and found that someone thought that Mad Sweeney was cursed by the monk Ronan. This may be zero help to you, but these folks might respond if you make a post there. Another forum I might try (long shot) would be www.midwestirishradio.com. Their membership is new, but vital. I'd also be curious if peer-to-peer programs like Limewire might give you any hits. Clearly you are breaking ground on this one:) |
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