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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (March-April) » Archive through April 11, 2007 » What was different about Cornish « Previous Next »

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 08:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I know, not Gaelic, but a remark on wikipedia piqued my interest:

"Middle Ages, reaching a peak of about 39,000 speakers (estimated[citation needed] by Ken George) in the 13th century. The linguist Edward Lhuyd, writing in 1702, theorises[citation needed] that the language of this time was heavily inflected, possessing not just the genitive, ablative and locative cases so common in Early Modern Cornish, but also dative and accusative cases, and even a vocative case, although historical references to this are rare."

If true, 5 or 6 cases; how is it that Breton and Welsh lost all cases, and these guys kept near 6 untill it began to fall apart?

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have been following the Cornish language situation for quite a while. For those who are not aware of it they have been embroiled in a controversy about how to spell the language that required bringing in outside experts to resolve the issues. Of course there are no native speakers since the language died out in the early 1800s according to some sources. The partisan groups seem to be divided along "Judging" and "Perceiving" lines to borrow some terms from Myers-Briggs typology.
The Jugdgers seem to want a conclusion reached (rightly or wrongly). They have the Cornish language establishment on their side, it having officially adopted Kemmyn in 1986 and forging ahead with learning materials and publishing in that form. The Perceivers seem to have a reticence about being railroaded without being convinced of the wisdom of Kemmyn and want to seek a broader-based consensus. The Kemmyn variety is based on one person's (Ken George) computer-assisted analysis of the reconstructed phonology and the resultant phonetic spelling is derived from that. They are to have recommendations made by a special Linguistic Working Group at the end of May. At least Gaeilge and Gaidhlig do not have to contend with a politicized spelling war.
On the other hand the Manx spelling is problemmatic. The non-Gaelic orthography (often staunchly defended by some) is an obvious mess. IMHO it is time for the Manx to adopt an orthography that would make the acquisition of it easier. An example of the gap between spelling is the word "cabbyl" (horse); it is pronounec "kav-il".

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 01:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Funny that on sounds -the Cornish on the wiki page seems to just be the sounds of Cornish english

The Manx thing is an obvious attempt at self sabotage -why would anyone want spelling that has no relation to speech? It is like driving a car but having the angles and distances changing randomly as if physics was rearranging itself. You would crash

Still, it is a good mirror for how Gaelic stands, as without the native speakers you can see how damaging a lot of the decisions and arguments are. Provides a lesson for that Canada gaeltacht, perhaps

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 407
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 01:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Provides a lesson for that Canada gaeltacht, perhaps

The Canadian gaeltacht is in very capable hands, but you bring up an interesting point. That is over time, say decades or even millenia, will there be a natural preference towards one dialect or An Caighdeán Ofigiúil? To me, as a proud share-holding member of this gaeltacht, it won't matter much, I just have to get used to saying "eh" at the end of sentences.

Fáilte Roimh Ceartúcháin - Go Raibh Maith Agaibh
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1580
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, March 30, 2007 - 02:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If true, 5 or 6 cases; how is it that Breton and Welsh lost all cases, and these guys kept near 6 untill it began to fall apart?

There weren't declensions in Cornish at that time, and there weren't any more since pre-Historical Cornish period (before the VIth century). I really don't understand what Lhuyd means there.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 910
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 10:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Why did the language die out?

Was it slaughtered by Her Majesty's possé just like An Ghaeilge?

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 05:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seems they were expected to have the prayer book in English, they didn't like it, rose up a bit, a number got killed, and things were never the same again (16th century, I think).

Whatever about the other countries, it must have been hard to have 'English' people speaking a Celtic language. That can't have helped

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There are a great many Cornish who do not consider themselves to be "English". Cornwall was not an English county/shire but a duchy. The area was called West Wales by the English for quite a while.
The idea that the Cornish are English is just plain incorrect.

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 928
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 08:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But nowadays how would one distinguish?

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river



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