Lá Dháibhéad Shona Dhaoibh! Happy St. David's Day. I know some of us (you know who you are! ) are already planning for St. Patrick's day, but today is St. David's Day and I thought I would extend my best wishes on this day held dearly by our Welsh friends (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_David's_Day)

I would also like to know if I'm using the right name for St. David, since I know many people translate David as Dáithí or Daithí and not Dáibhéad. In particular, I would like to know how the name David is represented in religious sources in Irish, say as in an Irish bible? Is it Dáithí, Daithí, or Dáibhéad?

Go raith maith agaibh,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but King David and St. David aren't the same person, are they? Even though they're both religious figures there's no reason their names should have been transliterated the same way.

Indeed, even transliterations of the same name aren't necessarily consistent from one text to another. You can find "Israel" rendered as both "Iosrael" and "Isráel" in (different) Irish Bibles, for example.

Déarfainn féin "Lá 'le Daithí" ach níl a fhios agam an bhfuil sé sin ceart.

Is mór an trua sin nach bhfuil na lusanna an aisig faoi bláth inniu :(

"Déarfainn féin "Lá 'le Daithí" ach níl a fhios agam an bhfuil sé sin ceart."

Níl.

Lá San Dáibhí atá ann.
Cathair San Dáibhí atá sa Ghaeilge ar a áit adhalachta sa Bhreatain Bheag .i.Ty Dewi.

Even though they're both religious figures there's no reason their names should have been transliterated the same way.

I didn't imply that the name for King David and St. David should be transliterated the same. I think the case of "Dáithí and Dáibhéad" is quite different than "Oisrael and Isráel," because "Dáithí" and "Dáibhéad" are two entirely different names. As I understand it, "Dáithí" is an Irish name the pre-dates Christianity (I read somewhere that the last pagan king of Ireland was Dáithí. And if I also understand correctly, the name "Dáibhéad" is the Irish representation of the biblical name "David."

In the case of "Oisrael and Isráel," both words represent the same proper noun known in English as "Israel."

Even though King David and St. David are not the same religious figure, it doesn't rule out the possibility that the same Irish name (Dáithí or Dáibhéad) is used for both figures, just as they are in English and is the case for many Old Testament and New Testament figures that share the same name.

Where's an Irish bible when you need one?

quote:

Lá Dháibhéad Shona Dhaoibh!

Lá Fhéile Dáibhéid, a deirfinn dá mba naomh darb ainm Dáibhéad atá i gceist.
(Dáibhéid, genitive of Dáibhéad)

Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil Dáibhéad, Dáibhí nó Dáithí an t-ainm atá ar Dewi Sant as Gaeilge.
Tá Dáibhí ar Vicipéid: 1 Márta
Deirfinn Lá Fhéile Dáibhí, más ceart sin.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on March 01, 2007)

From http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=David&lang=1

I found this:

David (Christian, first name)
Ainmneacha/Names
Dáibhí fir4
Dáithí fir4
Foclóir Reiligiúin/Dictionary of Religion 2005

(person in Bible)
Ainmneacha > Ainmneacha ón Sean-Tiomna/Names > Names from the Old Testament, Ainmneacha/Names
Dáiví fir4
Foclóir Reiligiúin/Dictionary of Religion 2005

So it looks like, at least from Focal.ie that all three names, Dáibhí, Dáithí, and also Dáiví are used for David.

I can't understand why the name Dáiví would exist, since the Irish language doesn't usually employ the letter "v," and the name "Dáibhí" already exists.

Mac Léinn Ainmneacha

Sure and if Aonghus was here he could have answered this question quicker than ... very quickly. :( I was hoping very much that he would choose something else to give up for Lent this year.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I've never come across 'Dáibhéad' before. Dáibhídh is the version I'm familiar with. Dáithí, as Mac Léinn said is an older native Irish name, originally Náithí unless I'm mistaken.

quote:

Dáithí, as Mac Léinn said is an older native Irish name, originally Náithí unless I'm mistaken.

Tá sé sin an-suimiúil. Bhí an t-ainm Nath-í, Naithí ann fadó fadó, ceart go leor. Agus tá an t-ainm Dáithí ann inniu. Ach theip orm an ceangal eadarthu a aimsiú. An bhfuil aon eolas eile agat?

Dála an scéil, bhíodh an nod seo in úsáid sna lámhscríbhinní fadó : .v.v. An dtuigeann sibh?

quote:

Lá Dháibhéad Shona Dhaoibh!

Disregarding the issue about the name, is it ok to say:


"Lá Dháibhéad Shona" (Without the Dhaoibh)
"Happy St. David's Day" (person not specified)

Lá Dháibhéad Shona Dhaoibh
Happy St. David's Day to everyone


Can that be used as a sort of "generic" form?

quote:

Lá Dháibhéad Shona

No. We just went through this argument for St. Patrick's Day. Search the archives. And the lenition of "shona" is 100% wrong in any case.

quote:

"Tá sé sin an-suimiúil. Bhí an t-ainm Nath-í, Naithí ann fadó fadó, ceart go leor. Agus tá an t-ainm Dáithí ann inniu. Ach theip orm an ceangal eadarthu a aimsiú. An bhfuil aon eolas eile agat?"

Under 'Nadh' in Dinneen: "Nadh, Nath, Dá (=Ná), reduced form of Nia in early warrior names eg. Nadh Crandail, Nath Í or Dáthí."

GRMA, a Shéamuis!

B'fhearr liomsa Dáibhí (nó Dáiví, má ghoileann an 'bh' ort), agus tá cás láidir agam! Sin m'ainm Bhaiste, agus sin an fhoirm sa Bhíobla. Cloím leis.

Smeone mentioned above that Daithí was the last pagan king of Ireland. Hmmmm! I think that High Kings were pagan for quite a while after Patrick had come. Temuir/Tara wasn't cursed for nothing! :-)

Looking at the King lists, I don't see any of the name Daithí, although memory of school days and early Irish history/mythology prompts me to the thought that a teacher may have surmised that they were two versions of the same name. I'm inclined to think otherwise.

I note that among the early Kings of Connacht (the Western Provice) there was a Nath Í. He appears to have had a cousin, who also reigned (primogeniture didn't apply in Ireland) who was called Dauí Tenga Uma - remarkably close to Dáiví in sound. In fact, there is a Scoil Nath Í in Dublin, I believe. Aongus might confirm this on his return, perhaps.

Nath Í is reputed to have died in a lightning strike at Sliab nElpa, purportedly the Alps. Possibly given the disintegration of the Empire in the west.... or possibly not, given the hordes of 'barbarians' that were rampaging around in Gaul (modern France). Anyway, his son Amalgaid is thought to have brought his body back to Cruachu, Connacht's royal seat and (on occasion) would-be rival to Temuir/Tara, where it was buried under a red (sandstone?) pillar.

Ty Dewi in Wales is called in English 'St. David's'. In Irish I believe we should call it Tigh (or Teach) Dháibhí.

Already enough?

I don't know how accurate this is, but here's some info claiming that Dáithí was the last pagan king of Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Dowd. If you have trouble with the link, just google for "daithi last king" and you'll see the link.



(Message edited by Mac_léinn on March 05, 2007)

Go raibh maith agat a James agus Pangur Dubh.

Scríobh Pangur Dubh: Already enough? I enjoyed reading what you wrote, and would always enjoy more. Here are a couple of more links, both with info on Dáithí.

The first link is about the Ancient Order of Hibernians. I didn't realize how ancient that order really was. The second link is about babies' names and includes the remark that Dáithí was the last pagan king of Ireland. I know I'm mixing up my Dáithí's and Dáibhí's but I wonder if there's a dialectical or other reason why there are different versions of the same name.

http://www.daytonaoh.org/histire.html

http://www.babynamesofireland.com/pages/boy-names-c-d.html

I incline to the belief that Daithí is a native Irish name - perhaps a variant on Nath-í; whereas Dáibhí is an introduction (perhaps from Romano Britain) and stems from the Bible. in other words, they are separate and not versions one of the other.