I've written a new poem, but I know that I have a tendency to think in grammatically complex constructions, so I'm sure it needs polish (alot of it). I'm very happy to receive suggestions and corrections to whatever degree those of you capable see fit to provide.

Much thanks in advance,

A


An Crann

Tá crann ann, a lán craoḃ
Iṫimid astu gaċ lá
Aċ cé go ḃfuil craoḃaċa go léir ann
A lán torṫaí éagsúla
Tá claonaḋ againn iṫe an toraḋ as aon géag aṁáin.

Aċ ina ḋiaiḋ sin, ċonaic mé craoḃ ársa, gan aird i ḃfad
‘s in aice leis ċruinniġ mórán
Ṡíninn ‘s giota asat a baint
Agus mé a ṫoraḋ milis a iṫe
Ḃí mo ṡúile go rúndiaṁra oscailte!

Aċ ba geata oscailte an ceann seo
Isteaċ sa Ġairdín,
‘s beannaċt mo ṡúile oscailte.
Neaṁċosúil leis an gcéad uair
A leiṫéid de toraḋ a ḃeiṫ rannṗáirteaċ i

Ċonaic mé ar gaċ éinne ċruinniġ ṫart -
D’iṫ a ċéile ar ċúiseanna éagsúla.
Saoṫraíoḋ na teaġlaiġ daoine an craoḃ
D’aois go leor.
Ba núíosaiġ daoine eile

Tagaḋ cuid acu na oilc stáire a cur i gceart
Nuair tagaḋ cuid eile a intinní a griogaḋ.
Lorg cuid acu tuiscint, báíoċt cuid eile.
Lorg cuid acu coṁrá a ḋéanaṁ le a sinséir,
Cuid eile cuid ruda éigin seanda a ḃeiṫ.

Ḃain an t-iomlán againn rud éigin as an lá sin
Cuid acu na rudaí a raiḃ siad ag súil
Cuid acu rudaí gan ċoinne.
‘s d’ḟiafraiġ gaċ ceann againn féin
As cén géag a íosfaimid amáraċ.

Mar atá obair de ḋíṫ ar an toraḋ a meall é as an craoḃ
‘s ḃí easpa diongḃáilteaċta ar mórán daoine.
Aċ fuair sinne a lá ar lá a filleaḋ
Is ea is mó a ḃí milse ag teannaḋ leis
Dá ṁéad a ḃimid ag iṫe

Faoi ḋeireaḋ, cé acu a ḃeiṫ ag súil linn nó ní ḃeiṫ,
Sinne a fanaċt, ḃí ár intinní oscailte
‘s ċonaiceamar an doṁain as an nua
Trí súile seanda atá orainn féin
An toraḋ milis ar ár dteangaċa fós

-Antaine 2007

(Message edited by antaine on February 26, 2007)

Antaine,

tá se an-deacair dhom, mar in ionad a lán litreach, ní fheicim ach cearnóigíní folamha. Agus is ait le mo shúilibh an séimhiú (i bhfoirm phoinnte os cion na litreach) sa gCló Rómhánach. Mholfainn dhuit cinneadh a dhéanamh ar dtús faoi'n gcur i láthair, .i. Cló Gaelach nó Cló Rómhánach, agus ansin na fadhbana leis na litreacha/cearnóigíní a réiteach. Muna bhfuil 'font' Gaelach agat, faigh ceann ar an idirlíon. Ba bhreá é a fheiscint.

Ach is cóir bravo a rá as ucht an dáin a chumadh ar an gcéad dul síos.

Scríobh mé é i mBuncló Ársa, ach, bhí sé caillte leis an "cut and paste."

Oh, agus is maith liom do "tairbhe" níos fearr ná mo "rud éigin"

(if this makes it easier to read...here goes again)



An Crann

Tá crann ann, a lán craobh
Ithimid astu gach lá
Ach cé go bhfuil craobhacha go léir ann
A lán torthaí éagsúla
Tá claonadh againn ithe an toradh as aon géag amháin.

Ach ina dhiaidh sin, chonaic mé craobh ársa, gan aird i bhfad
‘s in aice leis chruinnigh mórán
shíninn ‘s giota asat a baint
Agus mé a thoradh milis a ithe
bhí mo shúile go rúndiamhra oscailte!

Ach ba geata oscailte an ceann seo
Isteach sa ghairdín,
‘s beannacht mo shúile oscailte.
Neamhchosúil leis an gcéad uair
A leithéid de toradh a bheith rannpháirteach i

chonaic mé ar gach éinne chruinnigh thart -
D’ith a chéile ar chúiseanna éagsúla.
Saothraíodh na teaghlaigh daoine an craobh
D’aois go leor.
Ba núíosaigh daoine eile

Tagadh cuid acu na oilc stáire a cur i gceart
Nuair tagadh cuid eile a intinní a griogadh.
Lorg cuid acu tuiscint, báíocht cuid eile.
Lorg cuid acu comhrá a dhéanamh le a sinséir,
Cuid eile cuid ruda éigin seanda a bheith.

bhaineamar go léir tairbhe as an lá sin
Cuid acu na rudaí a raibh siad ag súil
Cuid acu rudaí gan choinne.
‘s d’fhiafraigh gach ceann againn féin
As cén géag a íosfaimid amárach.

Mar atá obair de dhíth ar an toradh a meall é as an craobh
‘s bhí easpa diongbháilteachta ar mórán daoine.
Ach fuair sinne a lá ar lá a filleadh
Is ea is mó a bhí milse ag teannadh leis
Dá mhéad a bhimid ag ithe

Faoi dheireadh, cé acu a bheith ag súil linn nó ní bheith,
Sinne a fanacht, bhí ár intinní oscailte
‘s chonaiceamar an domhain as an nua
Trí súile seanda atá orainn féin
An toradh milis ar ár dteangacha fós

-Antaine 2007


(Message edited by antaine on February 26, 2007)

A Antaine, tá sé i bhfad níos fhusa do dhuan a léamh anois. GRMA!

Firstly, this is YOUR poem, so it's rather cheeky to alter it in any way. But I am emboldened by the fact that you have said: "I'm very happy to receive suggestions and corrections to whatever degree those of you capable see fit to provide." So, I'll interface/interpolate my comments/suggestions within your text. The bracketed numbers refer to notes below.
AGAIN - IT'S YOUR POEM. i CAN ONLY MAKE SUGGESTIONS AND COMMENTS. ANY DECISION IS YOUR.


An Crann

Tá crann ann, a lán craobh
TÁ CRANN ANN, LÁN-CHRAOBHACH (1)

Ithimid astu gach lá
ITHIMID UATHU (2) GACH LÁ

Ach cé go bhfuil craobhacha go léir ann
ACH CÉ GUR CRANN ILCHRAOBHACH (3) É

A lán torthaí éagsúla
LE TORTHAÍ ÉAGSÚLA AR GACH CRAOBH (4)

Tá claonadh againn ithe an toradh as aon géag amháin.
TÁ CLAONADH AGAINN CHUN (5) TORADH AON GHÉIG AMHÁIN A ITHE (6)

Ach ina dhiaidh sin, chonaic mé craobh ársa, gan aird i bhfad
ACH INA DHIAIDH SIN (7), CHONAIC MÉ SEAN-CRAOBH (8) GAN AIRD I BHFAD (9)
‘s in aice leis chruinnigh mórán
'S IN AICE LEIS CHRUINNIGH MÓRÁN (10)

shíninn ‘s giota asat a baint (11)

Agus mé a thoradh milis a ithe (12)

bhí mo shúile go rúndiamhra oscailte!
D'OSCLAÍODH MO SHÚILE GO RÚNDIAMHRACH (13)

Ach ba geata oscailte an ceann seo
ACH BA GHEATA OSCAILTE AN CEANN SEO (14)

Isteach sa ghairdín,
ISTEACH SA GHAIRDÍN LIOM (15)

‘s beannacht mo shúile oscailte. (16)

Neamhchosúil leis an gcéad uair

A leithéid de toradh a bheith rannpháirteach i (17)

chonaic mé ar gach éinne chruinnigh thart -
CHONAIC MÉ AR GACH ÉINNE A CHRUINNIGH THART - (18)

D’ith a chéile ar chúiseanna éagsúla. (19)

Saothraíodh na teaghlaigh daoine an craobh (20)

D’aois go leor. (21)

Ba núíosaigh daoine eile (22)

I miss the sense you intend to convey.


Nuair tagadh cuid eile a intinní a griogadh.
nUAIR A THÁINIG CUID EILE CHUN (23) GHRIOGADH(24)

Lorg cuid acu tuiscint, báíocht cuid eile.


Lorg cuid acu comhrá a dhéanamh le a sinséir,
LORG CUID ACU COMHRÁ A DHÉANAMH (25) LEN A SINSÉAR (26)

Cuid eile cuid ruda éigin seanda a bheith. (27)

bhaineamar go léir tairbhe as an lá sin

Cuid (28) acu na rudaí a raibh siad ag súil

Cuid (28) acu rudaí gan choinne.

‘s d’fhiafraigh gach ceann againn féin
'S D'FHIAFRAIGH GACH CEANN AGAINN É FÉIN (29)

As cén géag a íosfaimid amárach.
AN GÉAG A IOSFAIMID UAIDH AMÁRACH (30)

Mar atá obair de dhíth ar an toradh a meall é as an craobh
MAR TÁ/BÍONN OBAIR DE DHÍTH AR AN TORADH A MHEALL É ÓN GCRAOBH(31)

‘s bhí easpa diongbháilteachta ar mórán daoine.

Ach fuair sinne a lá ar lá a filleadh (32)

Is ea is mó a bhí milse ag teannadh leis (33)
Dá mhéad a bhimid ag ithe (34)

Faoi dheireadh, cé acu a bheith ag súil linn nó ní bheith, (35)

Sinne a fanacht, bhí ár intinní oscailte
SINNE AG FANACHT,......AR OSCAILT (36)

‘s chonaiceamar an domhain as an nua (37)


Trí súile seanda atá orainn féin (38)

An toradh milis ar ár dteangacha fós (39)

-Antaine 2007

End of Part I

Part II



NUMBERED NOTES

1. LÁN-CHRAOBHACH - literally 'full-branched', which is an adjectival use. 'A lán craobh' seems to my sense like a segment detached from what has gone before

2. ASTU - out of them. The sense is a bit odd with reference to a branch. It seems to indicate that the branch contains, rather than bears. My suggestion is UATHU -'from them'.

3. 'Craobhacha go léir' is all branches. Ilchraobhach is 'many-branched' - your choice.

4. 'LE TORTHAÍ ÉAGSÚLA AR GACH CRAOBH', I don't think 'a lán' is necessary here, but I would add 'AR GACH CRAOBH', 'on each branch' for greater fullness of meaning.

5. I prefer 'CLAONADH AGAINN CHUN' - and inclination to - the 'chun' translates a 'to' indicating purpose. My feeling is that to omit the 'CHUN' might possibly hint at inclination in the sense of the Tower of Pisa :-)

6. A ITHE should go to the end of the phrase.

7. ACH INA DHIAIDH SIN - this is very definitely a temporal/sequential phrase. I understand what you mean, but I feel that the link back is not bridging as you intend it to. A rethink here, perhaps?

8. CHONAIC MÉ SEAN-CRAOBH - I am happier with 'sean', although undoubtedly ÁRSA can be used in a literary way; and what is more literary than poetry! Still, I feel more comfortable with 'sean'.

9. GAN AIRD I BHFAD. I think you mean 'not too high, do you not? But I don't think we can quite say it that way in Irish. Perhaps using a positive approach with a word like 'íseal' would be better - and easier! (AIRD is attention, BTW)

10. & 11. - I'm not quite getting the sense of your thought here. Something about eating the fruit....?

Mórán seems to be floating without a complement - a lot of????what??? Can this be tied in better?

12. 'Agus mé a thoradh milis a ithe'- I translate that as: 'and I to be eating its sweet fruit'. Forgive me a smile on this; and I intend the comment kindly; but it sounds like you were thinking in the language of the playwright Synge when you worked that translation.

Perhaps 'agus mé ag ithe a thoradh milis' would work. But better rethink these lines, I would advise.

13. bhí mo shúile go rúndiamhra oscailte!
D'OSCLAÍODH MO SHÚILE GO RÚNDIAMHRACH

I feel that you are thinking in English here. My suggestion is that you use the Briathar Saor form, as I have indicated.

It is also a personal thing with me that I don't care much for the use of the aidiacht briathara (verbal adjective - akin to the past participle in English) with the verb Bí.

14.Ach ba geata oscailte an ceann seo
ACH BA GHEATA OSCAILTE AN CEANN SEO

Part III


Note the Séimhiú - gheata. Again. I don't care much for the aidiach Br. with An Chopail - the Copula. My thought is that 'ar oscailt' is preferable.

15. Isteach sa ghairdín,
ISTEACH SA GHAIRDÍN LIOM

The LIOM is required, in my view.

16. ‘s beannacht mo shúile oscailte

Literally, I understand this as 'and the blessing of my opened eyes'... But what does this mean? To what verb should I refer? I am missing the sense you intend to convey. Again I see an aidiacht br. (oscailte)

17. A leithéid de toradh a bheith rannpháirteach i

'de' requires lenition of toradh.

It's not possible in Irish to finish a phrase with 'i'. I think you mean 'ann' - 'in it'.

18. chonaic mé ar gach éinne chruinnigh thart -
CHONAIC MÉ AR GACH ÉINNE A CHRUINNIGH THART

A chruinnigh. The 'A' is required.

Again, the sense here is eluding me. A rethink?

19. 'D’ith a chéile ar chúiseanna éagsúla.'

The grammatical sense escapes me. I translate this as

'ate each other (OR ate his spouse) for various reasons.'
Clearly this is not right, or what you intended. Anthropophagy is hardly part of learning Irish! :-)

The main problem is that I cannot identify the subject of the past tense very 'D'ith'. By subject I mean the doer of the action.

20. Saothraíodh na teaghlaigh daoine an craobh

I translate: 'were worked the households ...people...the branch'. I cannot work out the grammatical functioning of the words here.

21 & 22. I miss the sense you intend to convey.

23 & 24. Nuair tagadh cuid eile a intinní a griogadh.
NUAIR A THÁINIG (?) CUID EILE CHUN... (23)A GHRIOGADH(24)

Again, the 'chun' of purpose, and lenition after the 'a'.

25. & 26. Lorg cuid acu comhrá a dhéanamh le a sinséir,
LORG CUID ACU COMHRÁ A DHÉANAMH (25) LEN A SINSÉAR (26)

I'm not entirely happy with 'lorg'. It suggests to me 'looking' in the sense of 'tracking'. Wishing/wanting is what you intend, so 'ba mhian' might suit the need.

Sinséar is 'Ginger', as in the spice. Do you mean ancestor/s? I believe you do! :-) Be careful where that Síneadh fada goes!

27. Cuid eile cuid ruda éigin seanda a bheith.

I can't get the sense of the link from what has gone before, and the phrase seems somewhat obscure in meaning. Is there a point of punctuation that's missed? Perhaps a comma after 'eile'? Allowing this, I translate as
'another part, some certain other old things to be' but the sense is left hanging, for me at least.

28s. 'Cuid' proliferates. There must be another way of saying what you want without such close repetition of the word. A rethink here?

29. ‘s d’fhiafraigh gach ceann againn féin
'S D'FHIAFRAIGH GACH CEANN AGAINN É FÉIN

This is assuming you want to say: 'and each one asked himself'.

30. As cén géag a íosfaimid amárach.
AN GÉAG A IOSFAIMID UAIDH AMÁRACH

The branch from which we shall eat tomorrow. This is what you wanted? Not an easy construction when learning. :-)

31. Mar atá obair de dhíth ar an toradh a meall é as an craobh
MAR TÁ/BÍONN OBAIR DE DHÍTH AR AN TORADH A MHEALL É ÓN GCRAOBH

I translate 'As work is required/wanted/needed on the fruit that tempted him from the branch.' Is this right?

Note the possibility of the present continuous tense (bíonn). You should clarify which you prefer/require, I feel.

32. Ach fuair sinne a lá ar lá a filleadh

Obscure... I understand it as: 'but we found/got his day on the day he returned.' Is this correct?

A filleadh = her return!!!
A fhilleadh = his return.
A bhfilleadh = their return.

33 & 34. Is ea is mó a bhí milse ag teannadh leis (33)
Dá mhéad a bhimid ag ithe (34)

'And it is the case that sweetness was tightening around him however much we are eating.' ????

There is a jarring switch of tenses from past to present, btw. Is this intentional?

35. Faoi dheireadh, cé acu a bheith ag súil linn nó ní bheith,

Perhaps something like: 'Faoi dheireadh, cé acu a bhéas ag súil linn, agus cé nach mbeadh.'

36. Sinne a fanacht, bhí ár intinní oscailte
SINNE AG FANACHT,......AR OSCAILT

If you wish to apocopate 'ag' you should use the apostrophe to indicate the missing 'g'. Otherwise there is the possibility of confusion with the relative pronoun 'a', or the possessive pronoun!!!

37. ‘s chonaiceamar an domhain as an nua
I really like this particular line!!!

38. Trí súile seanda atá orainn féin (38)

Trí sHúile. I would also prefer the form 'Tré' in this case - unless, of course you are talking about Three eyes! :-) But trí is perfectly correct and the more usual form.

39. An toradh milis ar ár dteangacha fós

The sweet fruit still on our tongues... Indigestion? Just joking. I feel that you intend the taste is still on the tongues... If so, the word is 'blas'.

There is much in the poem in terms of concepts and ideas. But you have taken on quite a task here at your present level. I think I would baulk at it.

My remarks are intended to be helpful, while pointing up difficulties. This may just as easily be down to deficiencies in my knowledge in Irish

I hope you can gain something from what I have said. In allowing me to do this you have greatly complimented me, and I thank you for the confidence that this implies.

It's been a pleasure!

Go raibh míle maith agat. I teach writing, and poetry writing specifically. While I agree that the poem must be the writers own, I also recognize the validity of editorial suggestions. This is particularly true when the language the writer is using is not his native language.

When writing in Irish I purposely do not use a particular rhyme or meter, because I realize that editing required to preserve meaning will undoubtedly disrupt such elements.

I do feel that occasional projects such as this prompt me to learn and grow - not so much in the initial writing, but in understanding the editing suggestions of those more advanced than I.

To that end, I thank you for your explanations, and beg your indulgence once more as I attempt to gain further clarification of certain suggestions and initial notes on some lines which I constructed so poorly as to have been incomprehensible to you.





Ach cé go bhfuil craobhacha go léir ann
ACH CÉ GUR CRANN ILCHRAOBHACH (3) É
here I meant to say “go leor.” Is the line acceptable reading “go leor” instead of “go léir”? (lit. but although there are boughs a-plenty in it) I will also correct my copula goof.


Ach ina dhiaidh sin, chonaic mé craobh ársa, gan aird i bhfad
ACH INA DHIAIDH SIN (7), CHONAIC MÉ SEAN-CRAOBH (8) GAN AIRD I BHFAD (9)
with gan aird i bhfad, I mean “long neglected” Not a construction I’ve ever had to put together before, so I’m not surprised my intended meaning was compromised. Also, can “Go tobann” mean anything besides “suddenly”...could this be a possible acceptable replacement for ina dhiaidh sin?

‘s in aice leis chruinnigh mórán
'S IN AICE LEIS CHRUINNIGH MÓRÁN (10)
“and about it many gathered.”

shíninn ‘s giota as a baint (11)
“I reached and took a piece from it” (and a piece from it harvested/extracted) I’m assuming that uaidh works better here than “as” “asat” was a typo

Agus mé a thoradh milis a ithe (12)
I was going for “and as I ate”…”and me, its sweet fruit eating” no?





Isteach sa ghairdín,
ISTEACH SA GHAIRDÍN LIOM (15)
this is actually a split in the middle of a sentence, “ach ba gheata oscailte an ceann seo isteach sa Ghairdín” “but this one was an open gate into the Garden” meaning the fruit. An allusion to Genesis.

‘s beannacht mo shúile oscailte. (16)
i’m trying to say that my open eyes were a blessing - again juxtaposed with the open eyes of adam and eve after eating fruit from the tree of knowledge, which were a curse (Yeats’ poem ‘Adam’s Curse’) and evicted them from the Garden.

Neamhchosúil leis an gcéad uair
A leithéid de thoradh a bheith rannpháirteach i (17)
The down and dirty concept here was “much unlike the first time/such a fruit was partaken of” - yes, i know, I can’t even put english on it well, but there you have it. Perhaps “neamhchosúil leis an gcéad uair / a leithéid de thoradh a bheith rannpháirteach,” dropping the “i”? Perhaps a better way of saying “partake” or “partaken” with which i am not familiar is in order. any ideas on that?

chonaic mé ar gach éinne chruinnigh thart -
CHONAIC MÉ AR GACH ÉINNE A CHRUINNIGH THART - (18)
“I looked at all the others gathered around”?

D’ith a chéile ar chúiseanna éagsúla. (19)
“each ate”...or better yet, “each ate from it” “d’ith a chéile uathu ar chúiseanna éagsúla” I realize that “a chéile” which I’ve known as “each other” and “a chéile” “his spouse” is indistinguishable. I was hoping context would prevail, but perhaps a better way to capture that floating “each” is in order.

Saothraíodh na teaghlaigh daoine an craobh (20)
D’aois go leor. (21)
Ba núíosaigh daoine eile (22)
The families of some had cultivated the bough / for many centuries. / Others were newcomers
In thinking about this more, I think I’d like to capture “ages before/ago” instead of “for many an age” in that second line so as not to contradict my calling of the bough “long neglected” back in the beginning.


LORG CUID ACU COMHRÁ A DHÉANAMH (25) LEN A SINSÉAR (26)
can “lorg” mean “searching” in a philosophical sense? I was going for that more than wanting/wishing for. If possible, searching conveys a more active agency than passively wanting or wishing for.

Cuid eile cuid ruda éigin seanda a bheith. (27)
“others, to be part of something ancient”...yes, a comma should be there, but does even that preserve my intended meaning?...ruda éigin being “of something” not “some things”

Cuid (28) acu na rudaí a raibh siad ag súil
Cuid (28) acu rudaí gan choinne.
throughout I was trying to convey a distinction between “some” who make best use of the fruit (Gaeilge) and “others” who cannot…”some” who come with one set of motivations and “others” who come with different ones (cuid acu / cuid eile). I was hoping repetition might provide a common thread in the absence of rhyme and meter. Is it merely noticeably repetitious as intended or does it cross the line into ‘annoying’



‘s d’fhiafraigh gach ceann againn féin
'S D'FHIAFRAIGH GACH CEANN AGAINN É FÉIN (29)
this is the sort of grammatical thing I’m trying to absorb next. why the addition of the é?
“and each of us asked ourselves” I know I need to develop a better understanding of these things that don’t have direct carryovers to english.


As cén géag a íosfaimid amárach.
AN GÉAG A IOSFAIMID UAIDH AMÁRACH (30)
I wanted to say “which branch”...and each of us asked ourselves from which branch we would eat tomorrow.


Mar atá obair de dhíth ar an toradh a meall é as an craobh
MAR TÁ/BÍONN OBAIR DE DHÍTH AR AN TORADH A MHEALL É ÓN GCRAOBH(31)
now this one i knew was kind of a mindbender. “for the fruit required work to coax it from the bough...”

Ach fuair sinne a lá ar lá a filleadh (32)
Is ea is mó a bhí milse ag teannadh leis (33)
Dá mhéad a bhimid ag ithe (34)
“But those of us who day by day returned / found the fruit grew sweeter still / the more of it we ate.”

Faoi dheireadh, cé acu a bheith ag súil linn nó ní bheith, (35)

Sinne a fanacht, bhí ár intinní oscailte
SINNE AG FANACHT,......AR OSCAILT (36)
“Those of us who stayed” ...I wasn’t trying to shorten "ag” but perhaps your construction is better for conveying meaning without confusion. Do I understand you to mean it should read “sinne ag fanacht, bhí ár intinní ar oscailt”?

‘s chonaiceamar an domhain as an nua (37)
Yeah, I was actually quite pleased with myself over it...i’m glad it was noticed.

An toradh milis ar ár dteangacha fós (39)
well...given that the fruit is the language, quod scripsi scripsi and I meant what I said...HOWEVER, since blas can also refer to one’s linguistic accent I have to say I like your suggestion SO MUCH better! I’m going to simply replace toradh with blas when I print this, but I think when I actually translate it into english (something I usually do with my gaeilge poetry) I’ll say fruit, since the double meaning of blas only works in Irish.

Oh Dear! :-) Lots more to do! This will not be easily fitted in now, so please excuse me a slight delay. (It's already past 1 am here.)

I had picked up on the allusion to Gan Eden, and it tweaked my imagination too! Nice!

That said, I was looking more at the grammatical and clarity of expression angles. But modern poetry being modern poetry, you can say what you want in any way you like - or so I am told.

Me, I like the poetry that conforms to metre, rhythm and even rhyming systems. But I am old-fashiond in this respect. I particularly like Vachel Lindsay's work, although he has been accused of being racists. He died in 1932, so it's more than likely. Mores have changes a lot since then. Some for the better, even.

It strikes me that perhaps people here may not exactly like the idea of the board being taken over by our poetic adjustments. I would suggest we continue but on one of my email addresses - will get me. If you let me have an addy for yourself, I will respond to you off board.
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I, too, prefer poetry with strict meter and rhyme, and in english like to write sonnets, vilanelles and long narrative epic poems. These things, however, are far beyond my capabillities in Irish. I had to begin with blank and free verse in english and work my way up to more complex forms, and so I will do the same in Irish as I learn and grow. Better than writing no poetry at all, nach bhfuil?

I will send you this same message on email, and if you wish to carry the conversation there, I have no problem with it, but there are those who might be interested in following the grammatical and artistic points of the discussion...it is just one thread, after all...and is both polite and related to the Irish language ;-) so mayhaps it does some good.

I defer to your judgement, however, so whichever way you prefer is good with me.

A Antaine a chara,

Conas ta do eipic ag tar? How is your epic coming?
This is assuming that you are only writing one, an assumption that perhaps I ought not to make.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Scríobh Antaine: ....but there are those who might be interested in following the grammatical and artistic points of the discussion

A Antaine, is maith liomsa do dhán agus an plé seo. When I first read your initial posting I didn't go to the extent of trying to comprehend it, but after following Pangur Dubh's and your ensuing discussion, I see that you must be a very good teacher and you've also got the gift of being able to write good poetry - maith thú!

But I can understand that Pangur Dubh and you might want to work further in private, but if you decide to continue here, I would enjoy reading more of the dialog between you and Pangur Dubh et al, and also seeing your final version.

Mac Léinn Filíochta

One is finished, the other is slowly coming along. The first runs 800 lines in heroic couplets and 100 footnotes. On the surface it tells a story of the coming of Gaelic to Ireland...in actuality it is an allegorical retelling of my experiences during my undergraduate and first year of graduate work.

The second is reminiscent of alice in wonderland, using the same meter and rhyme as the rime of the ancient mariner.

i will certainly postthe final version =)

A Mhic Léinn,

Bhí mé amhrasach leanúint ar aghaidh leis an ábhar seo go poiblí. Cheap mé go mbeadh daoine buartha faoi. Ach fecitear nach sin an scéal, agus mar sin tá mé thar bheith sásta an cás a phlé anseo. An suáilce is mó ná go mbaineadh cách taitneamh as an díospóireacht.

A Antaine,

Seo chugat arís mo thuairimí agus mo chomhairle faoin mé atá á phlé eadarainn.

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Ach cé go bhfuil craobhacha go léir ann
ACH CÉ GUR CRANN ILCHRAOBHACH (3) É

here I meant to say “go leor.” Is the line acceptable reading “go leor” instead of “go léir”? (lit. but although there are boughs a-plenty in it) I will also correct my copula goof.

OK. I get your point. An easy typo to make, btw!

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Ach ina dhiaidh sin, chonaic mé craobh ársa, gan aird i bhfad
ACH INA DHIAIDH SIN (7), CHONAIC MÉ SEAN-CRAOBH (8) GAN AIRD I BHFAD (9)
with gan aird i bhfad,

I mean “long neglected” Not a construction I’ve ever had to put together before, so I’m not surprised my intended meaning was compromised. Also, can “Go tobann” mean anything besides “suddenly”...could this be a possible acceptable replacement for ina dhiaidh sin?

For a long time can be translated as: LE FADA

The image that actually came to mind was of a branch that was easy to reach, and I assumed that ‘aird ‘was a typo for ‘airde’. I rather like that image! Now you’ve taken it away! LOL

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‘s in aice leis chruinnigh mórán
'S IN AICE LEIS CHRUINNIGH MÓRÁN (10)

“and about it many gathered.”

Mórán needs a noun, I feel. It doesn’t stand well on its own. ‘daoine’, perhaps. Or drop ‘mórán’ altogether and use a very useful word ‘slua’, if you can work that in. (Slua-ghairm (Hosting Call) has given us the English word Slogan, I believe.)

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shíninn ‘s giota as a baint (11)

“I reached and took a piece from it” (and a piece from it harvested/extracted) I’m assuming that uaidh works better here than “as” “asat” was a typo

Shínim is I stretchout/extend – one ‘n’. In Irish schools in the days of corporal punishment the command was “Sín amach do lámh” – holout your hand (for strokes of a cane of a tawse. Savage days!) Anyway, past tense would be ‘Shín mé,’ OR ‘shíneas’

Perhaps because of my school experience (I was a model pupil – naturally  - and rarely suffered the dreaded ‘Sín amach’) I feel that an Object is required after ‘Sín’ . Perhaps ‘Mo lámh’???

Remember the ‘chun’ of purpose? It’s needed here. ‘For to’ in Hiberno English is how people recently converting to English-speaking expressed what they felt was a lack, or a need in English. They missed the effect of ‘chun’. So, you need to work with: ‘Shín mé (shíneas) mo lámh amach chun giota a bHaint uaidh’. Remember the Lenition after ‘a’.

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Agus mé a thoradh milis a ithe (12)

I was going for “and as I ate”…”and me, its sweet fruit eating” no?


It’s not really possible in Irish.

Perhaps: Agus mé ag ithe a thoraidh mhilis

Ainm Br and Genitive case…. Why? Because literally it’s ‘at the eating OF..’

You’ve got quite good Irish, so watch out for direct translation. It often doesn’t work well, particularly in poetic form. The structure of Irish is very different from English.

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Isteach sa ghairdín,
ISTEACH SA GHAIRDÍN LIOM (15)

this is actually a split in the middle of a sentence, “ach ba gheata oscailte an ceann seo isteach sa Ghairdín” “but this one was an open gate into the Garden” meaning the fruit. An allusion to Genesis.

OK. I missed this split. I grovel! 

There is nothing at all wrong with ‘an ceann seo’, but I would suggest perhaps it’s not really necessary when the short, neat word ‘é´ would do just as well. Again, I feel a bringing across of an AmeroEnglish translation…. It’s just a sense I have, and there is no reason not to use what you have given Look at your own translation into English and see if the this one is not better replaced by “it”.
This one is your call. It is your call….take your choice.

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‘s beannacht mo shúile oscailte. (16)

i’m trying to say that my open eyes were a blessing - again juxtaposed with the open eyes of adam and and evicted them from the Garden.

Fine. I understand now. You need the copula/An Chopail. I understand the initial ‘s’ as an abbreviation for ‘agus’. If, however, it is an abbreviation for ‘Is’, the Copula, then it is present in meaning. We are talking in the past, no? The past of the Copula is’Ba’ and it lenites Mar sin: ‘Ba bheannacht mo shúile oscailte’

Part II


Neamhchosúil leis an gcéad uair
A leithéid de thoradh a bheith rannpháirteach i (17)

The down and dirty concept here was “much unlike the first time/such a fruit was partaken of” - yes, i know, I can’t even put english on it well, but there you have it. Perhaps “neamhchosúil leis an gcéad uair / a leithéid de thoradh a bheith rannpháirteach,” dropping the “i”? Perhaps a better way of saying “partake” or “partaken” with which i am not familiar is in order. any ideas on that?

Your problem here I thin is with a misunderstanding of the word ‘Rannpháirteach’. I means ‘to take part’ or participate’. I don’t know that it means ‘to partake’ in an ‘eating’ sense. I’ve certainly never used it like that, nor have I ever come across it. It can also mean ‘Partnership’.

That said, it is possible to be ‘rannpháirteach i bhféasta/ i mbia’; but that means ‘to be there among the company, sharing the food’.

It’s a long time since I have been to a Holy Communion service (France is a heathen place) but the term may come up in the Church of Ireland’s Eucharist Service. Again, though, if it does, I think it would be in the sense of taking part in the Eucharist, which includes the taking of the Consecrated Elements. But still, I don’t feel it means directly ‘eating/consuming’.

Perhaps someone else might come in on this one.

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chonaic mé ar gach éinne chruinnigh thart -
CHONAIC MÉ AR GACH ÉINNE A CHRUINNIGH THART - (18)

“I looked at all the others gathered around”?

I think you want,

Chonaic mé gach éinne a chruinnigh thart.

But ‘chonaic means ‘saw’ – not ‘looked at’, and it takes a direct object so ‘ar’ is redundant.

‘To look at’ is ‘feicim’. The past tense is ‘D’fhéach mé’

Don’t forget that there is more than one verb for ‘to gather’. I rather like ‘Bailím’ (Bailithe). And Cruinnithe is another possibility – past particple. (and no verb ‘Bí’! LOL)

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D’ith a chéile ar chúiseanna éagsúla. (19)

“each ate”...or better yet, “each ate from it” “d’ith a chéile uathu ar chúiseanna éagsúla” I realize that “a chéile” which I’ve known as “each other” and “a chéile” “his spouse” is indistinguishable. I was hoping context would prevail, but perhaps a better way to capture that floating “each” is in order.


There is a kind of reciprocity/reflexiveness about ‘céile’. ‘Each other’ is how to think about it, perhaps.

However, in what you say; ‘each ate’, there is no reciprocity or reflexiveness. This is the nub of the difficulty here.

I suspect you need ‘Gach Aon’ each one.

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Saothraíodh na teaghlaigh daoine an craobh (20)
D’aois go leor. (21)
Ba núíosaigh daoine eile (22)

The families of some had cultivated the bough / for many centuries. / Others were newcomers
In thinking about this more, I think I’d like to capture “ages before/ago” instead of “for many an age” in that second line so as not to contradict my calling of the bough “long neglected” back in the beginning.

To better understand the difficulty here, let me render literally in English your text:

“Were worked the households people the branch of age enough.

Was inexperienced other people”

Now to address a solution to the difficulty:

The verb is the Briathar Saor, which is as near as Irish gets to a passive voice. The Briathar Saor admits no agent, i.e. an action by, with, from. In Irish one cannot say ‘he was hit by a car’ – at least not in a literal word for word way. There are, of course ways of getting around this, but it still stands. It is one of the great differences between English and Irish – the lack of a definite Passive Voice.

So the verb should be past tense Active/Indicative

‘Shaothraigh cuid de na teaghlaigh an craobh’

might fit the bill. Do you agree?

‘Cuid de’ is useful to translate ‘some of’.

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LORG CUID ACU COMHRÁ A DHÉANAMH (25) LEN A SINSÉAR (26)

can “lorg” mean “searching” in a philosophical sense? I was going for that more than wanting/wishing for. If possible, searching conveys a more active agency than passively wanting or wishing for.

Let me give you my personal experience of ‘lorg’. In an office scenario I often used this verb when something had gone missing, and I was looking for it. “Tá mé ag lorg an comhad a bhí agam inné’ – I am looking for the file I had yesterday – i.e. it’s missing and I am on its trail.

Certainly you can use it as you do, but the nounal form has all to do with marking, tracing, tracking, seeking, location, locating… So I am left with the feeling that it’s not the most elegant word to use in this case… But it’s your call.

It comes to me that I have used: Cad tá á lorg agat? But this is just the right side of being aggressive.
Don’t ask! LOL

Part III
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Cuid eile cuid ruda éigin seanda a bheith. (27)

“others, to be part of something ancient”...yes, a comma should be there, but does even that preserve my intended meaning?...ruda éigin being “of something” not “some things”

Cuid (28) acu na rudaí a raibh siad ag súil
Cuid (28) acu rudaí gan choinne.

throughout I was trying to convey a distinction between “some” who make best use of the fruit (Gaeilge) and “others” who cannot…”some” who come with one set of motivations and “others” who come with different ones (cuid acu / cuid eile). I was hoping repetition might provide a common thread in the absence of rhyme and meter. Is it merely noticeably repetitious as intended or does it cross the line into ‘annoying’

Thanks for the clarification.

Lorg cuid acu comhrá a dhéanamh le a sinséir,
Cuid eile cuid ruda éigin seanda a bheith.

On reflection I find the ‘a dhéanamh’ redundant in the first line. I would tend to render it as:

‘Lorg cuid acu comhrá len a sinsir’
(Note ‘Seacht Sinsear’= ancestors going back forever. Also euphony of ‘len’)

In the second line I would again introduce ‘acu’ ‘Cuid Acu is a standard phrase for some/people/of them etc.

The translation of a poetic concept/conceit is often all but impossible. We have a difficulty here. But earlier, you, yourself provided a possible answer…. Serendipity at work! So, I would tend to render the second of the quoted lines above as:

Lorg cuid eile acu bheith rannpháirteach i rud éigin seanda.

But this is clearly unsatisfactory. A better approach would be to concretize ‘rud’ and say what it is. Then it would be possible to handle to concept more easily – perhaps.

‘Lorg’ still leaves me uneasy. It’s nounal use is always in the sense of locating, tracking, tracing etc.

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‘s d’fhiafraigh gach ceann againn féin
'S D'FHIAFRAIGH GACH CEANN AGAINN É FÉIN (29)

this is the sort of grammatical thing I’m trying to absorb next. why the addition of the é?

“and each of us asked ourselves” I know I need to develop a better understanding of these things that don’t have direct carryovers to english.
Mé féin
Tú féin
Sé féin (nominative use)
É féin (Accusative/Objective use)
Sí féin (nom.)
Í féin (acc.)
Sinn féin
Sibh féin
Siad féin (nom.)
Iad féin (acc.)

Not so bad, really.

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As cén géag a íosfaimid amárach.
AN GÉAG A IOSFAIMID UAIDH AMÁRACH (30)

I wanted to say “which branch”...and each of us asked ourselves from which branch we would eat tomorrow.

Simple. Change ‘an’ to’ cén’

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Mar atá obair de dhíth ar an toradh a meall é as an craobh
MAR TÁ/BÍONN OBAIR DE DHÍTH AR AN TORADH A MHEALL É ÓN GCRAOBH(31)

now this one i knew was kind of a mindbender. “for the fruit required work to coax it from the bough...”

My understanding, which I translated in upper case was this:

“For it requires (hard) work on the fruit that enticed him from the branch”….. Hmmmm!

Mheall is the past tense of the verb ‘meallaim’ I entice/tempt.

What is required now is:

Mar tá/bíonn obair de dhíth chun an toradh a mhealladh ón gcraobh.

It’s not quite what you are saying. A direct translation:

“For work is required to entice the fruit from the branch.

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Ach fuair sinne a lá ar lá a filleadh (32)
Is ea is mó a bhí milse ag teannadh leis (33)
Dá mhéad a bhimid ag ithe (34)

“But those of us who day by day returned / found the fruit grew sweeter still / the more of it we ate.”

My translation of the English you have provided would be this:

Ach sinne a fhill, lá I ndiaidh lá, fuaireamar an toradh níos milse ná riamh, de réir mar a itheamar é.

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Faoi dheireadh, cé acu a bheith ag súil linn nó ní bheith, (35)

You seem to have missed out on this one!

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Sinne a fanacht, bhí ár intinní oscailte
SINNE AG FANACHT,......AR OSCAILT (36)

“Those of us who stayed” ...I wasn’t trying to shorten "ag” but perhaps your construction is better for conveying meaning without confusion. Do I understand you to mean it should read “sinne ag fanacht, bhí ár intinní ar oscailt”?

That would certainly get you off this particular hook.

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‘s chonaiceamar an domhain as an nua (37)
Yeah, I was actually quite pleased with myself over it...i’m glad it was noticed.

It’s a good ‘un!

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An toradh milis ar ár dteangacha fós (39)

well...given that the fruit is the language, quod scripsi scripsi and I meant what I said...HOWEVER, since blas can also refer to one’s linguistic accent I have to say I like your suggestion SO MUCH better! I’m going to simply replace toradh with blas when I print this, but I think when I actually translate it into english (something I usually do with my gaeilge poetry) I’ll say fruit, since the double meaning of blas only works in Irish.

You da man!

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