I know that pronunication is a painful thing to explain here, but I was curious if some of the more advanced speakers could put into "simple" terms (please don't give a bunch of linguistic babble that I won't understand) how to pronounce plurals that have internal changes like capall, gort, and casúr?

I know that the plurals are capaill, goirt, and casúir...but I have yet to find a good explanation of how to pronounce plurals that do this?

quote:

capaill, goirt, and casúir

KAH-pwily, GORTy, KAH-soo-ir

Sin agat é in "simple" terms.

"KAH-pwily, GORTy, KAH-soo-ir"
Wouldn't 'goirt' be prnounced something like /girt'/ or 'gwirtch' (very rough).

KAH-pill ?:)

quote:

Wouldn't 'goirt' be prnounced something like /girt'/ or 'gwirtch' (very rough).

I can't speak for all dialects. For me, it's the /o/ that you hear in "goirt" (bitter, salty), "doirt" (pour), "coirt" (bark), etc.

quote:

KAH-pill ?:)

There is a strong w-glide after 'p' here.

Dála an scéil, Gavin, do you know about glide vowels? They are a big part of what makes Irish pronunciation tick.

"Wouldn't 'goirt' be prnounced something like /girt'/ or 'gwirtch' (very rough)."

I would like to know where this lip rounding of velar that you hear for 'gwélga' and 'fina gwél' comes from. Teacher use it, newscasters... If it exists in the dialects it is very marginal, and since 'kw' disappeared so long ago, one would not expect to find it, unless it was over generalised from the bi-labials, or some other novelty.

Why do you say 'pronounce plurals'? They are like any other word ending in a slender sound.

As for glides, there is a thread somewhere where I explained how it works.

'Gwirtch' vs 'goirt' -the i is a glide, so the o stays in speech: [gʷiɹʧ] vs. [ɡoɾt̪ʲ] -you can see a difference here. English retroflex r is very vowel-like as it never touches the lining of the mouth, and can be kept as long as you can keep the breath coming, so messes up the glide and other relations

In capaill, the -ill is like ll in million and William, the p is lip rounded, the c is k but a little further back in the mouth

goirt is gort but with a palatal t (same tong position as ll in capaill above, just tell you mouth to now make a t), a broad r (not slender) which is made like a lot of Americans in like 'waDer' for 'water' -that tap on the alveolars. there is probaly a phrase that makes more Americans tap than that, but I dont have one. G is in same place like for k above.

ú is pure 'oo' (but dont get carried away, not liek in Scotland!), and slender r is a bit hard to explain. I ahve come up with numerous strategies for making it, up in the abscence of feedback, mentioning them is a rather blind activity.

Remember, in real speech, the broad sounds are not plain -they are more different, but when learning, the important distinction is the slender sounds. Worry about them first (in my opinion; I'm not telling you what to do, or anything)

In Gweedore:
capaill [ˈkˠɑpʷɪλ]
goirt [gˠɪɼtʲ]
casúir [ˈkˠɑsəj]

At least that's how you'd pronounce these words if their plural were like that in Gweedore, but actually, maybe people have casúraí as a plural of casúr, etc. Capall means a mare in Donegal (a horse is beathach [b´aːh]).