http://gomaithcomic.blogspot.com/

Go han mhaith!

Ha! I must say, I picked out 3 or 4 words from the Happy Valentine's Day comic!

The old man first says, I think, "Happy Valentine's day, would you like to eat" and then I guess he's saying "strawberry" but I'm not sure.

I then notice him saying "cad é" which I think means, "what [kind of food] would you like?" the food being understood. But I don't know what else he says.

Then, in the second conversation, I see the young guy saying something something something, "of course." and the old man responds something, "OK."

Very exciting day for me. thought I'd share.

there is a translation if you click the link below the script!

Maith thú a Finbarr!

Scríobh tú: I then notice him saying "cad "

"Cad é" (what is it) is a form for "what" used predominantly in the Ulster dialect. For example: Cad é mar atá tú? How are you? (literally, "What is it as are you").

A Finbarr, just for clarification, I didn't mean to imply that "Cad é" by itself was a complete sentence.

On my Pimsleur CD, I learn "Cad é" in the context of asking "do you want something to eat?" And the CD said (I'm about to spell this wrong, I know)"Cad mhai leat" was, "what do you want to eat?" with "a ahe" (again, probably spelled incorrectly) understood.

Maybe it was something else, I haven't picked up that cd in about 2 weeks. But thanks for the info!

Oh, and as for the English translation, I did check that out. Thanks for providing the link to the comic!

A Finbarr,

I think the Pimsleur phrase you're thinking of is:

Cad ar mhaith leat ithe, anois an ea?, where cad means "what." We'll need someone more knowledgeable than I to provide some input here, but I think that "cad é" is unique to the Ulster dialect. In case you're not already familiar with the source, you can view the complete Pimsleur transcripts at The Gaelic League of New England's website:

http://www.gaeilge.org/pimsleurtranscript.html

No, now I'm sure it's "Cad ba mhaith leat?" Thanks, I have seen the transcript. That's how I recognized those few words on the comic!

Cad ba mhaith leat - what would you like

Cad ba mhaith leat a ithe - what would you like to eat
Cad ba mhaith leat a ól - what would you like to eat

etc.

Right. That makes perfect sense. In one of the Pimsleur lessons when it is telling the learner how to say
"I want something to eat."
"Do you want something to eat."
"Where do you want to eat."

It says saying "Cad ba mhaith leat" will be fine for "What would you like to eat?" Now that I think about it, perhaps that's just context.

For example, if I'm standing at a bar and the bartender asks
"Cad ba mhaith leat" I'm going to assume he means what kind of drink. Same if I'm at a clothing store and my friend asks, "Cad ba mhaith leat" I'd assume he'd mean what piece of clothing would I like to buy.

Fair understanding?

Maybe my eyes are deceiving me but the only phrase where I can find in Pimsleur which contains both "cad" and "ithe" is the phrase that I listed above, Cad ar mhaith leat ithe, anois an ea? Aonghus has provided clarification on other useful phrases, and I'm now puzzled with what does the Pimsleur phrase "Cad ar mhaith leat ithe, anois an ea?" mean. I think it means "What do you like to eat, now is it?"

My point above was that when "cad é" is part of a phrase it is usually a sign of the Ulster-dialect, where as for the Pimsleur tapes, the "what" part of the phrase is not "cad é" but it is "cad."

Sorry if I confused matters, but the comibination "cad é" is often a challenge, for me because, except when it stands alone, it is within the Ulster phraseology like "Cad é mar atá tú" and hundreds of other phrases that have different constructions than found in the Connaught and Munster(e.g. Pimsleur) dialects. Perhaps someone can clarify or confirm if this point I'm trying to make is valid.


Go raibh maith agaibh

hmm, I'll return to the CDs and confirm what I heard. and check up on that phrase.

"Cad ar mhaith leat ithe, anois an ea?"

I'm afraid I don't understand that either.

"What would you like to eat, now, is it?"

Now if it were:

"Cathain ar mhaith leat ithe?"

"when would you like to eat?"

it would make more sense.

Perhaps someone else can explain it.

Ar is the present, positive, indirect relative form of the of the copula. Ba is the conditional relative direct form of the copula. Which means:

Cad ba mhaith leat? - what would you like? (per Aonghus above)

Cad ar mhaith leat? - what do you like?

That's my understanding from reading the chart at the back of Foclóir Póca/ Foclóir Scoile. Hopefully someone can confirm or correct.

This is simple to analyse: Cad ba mhaith leat - what would you like

And can lead to this mistake: "Cathain ar mhaith leat ithe?" -"when would you like to eat?" #


Here we see that as an English speaker you are sampling the sentance as [when] [wudyulek] [(to)eat(ing)] ~[cathain] [ba mhaith leat] [ithe]

It seems this is illegal in Irish to have 'Cathain' first in an interrogation sentace that is directly addressed, but which is not realtive. I see it in direct and indirect senses in relative senses (a' building, a' walking sentances) (better speakers might give better examples!):

sin é an tiománaí cathain a bhuail an bus na daoine
"+that's the driver+ *when* the bus hit the people"
'that is the driver when a (did) hit the bus the people'

tá sí ina seasamh cathain a bhuail an bus
"+she was standing+ *when* the bus hit"
'stands she in her a' standing when a hit the bus'
(I'm using tá to means 'stands' here regardless of tense, as tá is not ethemologically 'is' but 'stands')


Since you/we expect from English to ask with 'when' first, there is some confusion. Maybe "when would you like to eat?" could be rendered "Cathain a bheifeá réidh le do dhinnéar?" 'when a would-you-be ready for your dinnear?' , but I'm getting confused by the modality of the whole thing, so it is best to ahd over to someone who knows that they are tlaking about


Cathain can be also used to interject after some one said something:

Fuair Margret Tatcher bás!

Cathain?!

quote:

And can lead to this mistake: "Cathain ar mhaith leat ithe?" -"when would you like to eat?" #


Here we see that as an English speaker you are sampling the sentance as [when] [wudyulek] [(to)eat(ing)] ~[cathain] [ba mhaith leat] [ithe]

Am I being overly sensitive in finding that a little condescending. I'm not a grammarian. I'm an Irish speaker - I don't think in English and translate to Irish, although my Irish is of course effected by my first language, English. Most Irish speakers in the country probably have English as their first language.

quote:

Here we see that as an English speaker you are sampling the sentance

No, I'm not. I was just trying to reference it to the construction "Cad ar mhaith leat a ithe?" which is a form I didn't recognise. I wouldn't say it like that. Neither would I say "Cad ba mhaith leat a ithe".
I'd probably say:

"Cad ba mhaith leat le n-ithe"

quote:

sin é an tiománaí cathain a bhuail an bus na daoine
"+that's the driver+ *when* the bus hit the people"
'that is the driver when a (did) hit the bus the people'

I'm afraid that doesn't make sense:

"Sin é an fear a bhí ag tiomáint nuair a bhuail an bus na daoine"

quote:

tá sí ina seasamh cathain a bhuail an bus
"+she was standing+ *when* the bus hit"
'stands she in her a' standing when a hit the bus'

Again, that's not correct.

"Bhí sí ina seasamh nuair a bhuail an bus ......."

I am open to correction on any of the above, of course.

quote:

so it is best to ahd over to someone who knows that they are tlaking about

Agreed :)

I think that for once in my life I might know what I'm talking about (oh please be true, oh please be true!)

In other words I think this whole discussion boils down to ar versus ba.

Scríobh Antóin: Am I being overly sensitive in finding that a little condescending.

A Antóin, if I may, I think it's just BRN's writing style; I don't think there's a condescending bone in BRN's body, it's just BRN's frankness along with a unique way of writing things, that's all.

I agree with Mac Leinn. Though BRN can sometimes come across as a bit overwhelming and perhaps condescending, I think it is just because he uses big words and that is just the way he writes. He doesn't mean anything by it.

Beir bua agus beannacht

WHat?

As a speaker of English I recognise the error because it is natural to say 'When etc' as part of a question on when, for example will dinner be ready. Since, Cathain used in that way diverged from Aonghus' example, I had to find out (since I did not know myself). I actually spent 3/4 hour looking through books for Macs copula viewpoint and how the question you wanted should be phrased (should have done the project instead!)

You contradict yourself -in fact the whole point of the response was to tell you my position after looking into cathain, not to tell you you were wrong, and why it could not be used liek 'cad'. After all, I saw no example of cathain been used the same as when, so I suspected it had to be looked into.

I pointed out that the sentance would require bhí rather than tá. I thought it was nuair too, but I saw cathain used in relative sentances, so I put it in. I was hoping someone else would shed light on it all

THIS CAN BE IGNORED!***

IN the above type of sentances 'cathain' is a 'temporal interrogative adverb/conjunction' (Ó Dónaill, blame him...) is apparently only used in Munster

'Nuair' is a relative conjunction, so one goes "blah blah blah nuair a blah blah blah" in the sort of direct and indirect relative sentances given above.

So if we replace 'cathain' with 'cén uair' (according to the thread) we could have "Ní dúirt sé cén uair a thiocach/thiocfadh sé" He didn't say when he would come. None of this is relivant but the fact of the requirement of relative forms through me off.

***
START HERE

Anyway... the whole point is that I said 'Cathain ar mhaith ' is wrong and even though I did not know what I was talking about took a pot shot. Mac says the conditional form of the copula is required.

Donna Wong's book gives "Cathain a aithriseofar an dán" as 'When will someone recite the poem', so my comment on initial position was wrong.

On the Wong pattern we could have 'Cathain a deanfar an dinnéar?' 'When will someone make the dinner' (assuming you can 'make' a dinner in Irish).

Mac says 'ar' and Plimseur says: "Cathain ar mhaith leat ithe? = When would you like to eat?" http://www.gaeilge.org/pimsleurtranscript.html Lessonn 6





Some day I'll get one right

Please accept my apologies BRN for any confusion that I've caused. I've been focusing on Finbarr's initial question about "what food would/do you like" which is contained in Lesson 7 with the phrase Cad ar mhaith leat ithe, anois an ea? It looks like we have a separate discussion on Cathain also in this thread, and I didn't mean to comment on that phrase, so sorry for any confusion.

No need to apologise -I think this was all just a series of misunderstandings, and if Antóin wants to continue the thread, here's his question again:




"Cad ar mhaith leat ithe, anois an ea?"

I'm afraid I don't understand that either.

"What would you like to eat, now, is it?"

Now if it were:

"Cathain ar mhaith leat ithe?"

"when would you like to eat?"

it would make more sense.

Perhaps someone else can explain it.

"Cad ar mhaith leat ithe, anois an ea?"

I don't know why the above phrase isn't just simply "What do you like to eat, now is it?" I know the Irish phrase itself and its translation is a little stilted with the anois an ea part, but it's still valid, nach ea?

In other words, how would one say "What do you like to eat?" Although there might be other ways, wouldn't Cad ar mhaith leat ithe?" suffice?

"Cad ar mhaith leat ithe, anois an ea?"

This is NOT on the CD, except to say that, "you might think that you would use 'ar' but in Irish, we don't, we just say Cad mhaith leat?"

"Cathain ar mhaith leat ithe?"
This IS on the CD.

And I do remember hearing "Ca dé?" but not for "what would you like to eat, but something else, which I have now forgotten, perhaps, what is it?

A Finbarr, thanks for the clarification agus tá an ceart agat, the phrase Cad é? means What is it?

OT, a Mhac Leinn a chara,

Did you write to An Gum about the discrepencies in virtual vs. realistic pronounciations found in Focloir Poca yet? I didn't get a chance to respond to that post of yours about it and I always try to respond to things that no one else responds to but I guess I missed it so I wanted to just check with you and see how that went and if you got an answer.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Uachtar na tráthnóna ¹, a Ríona. I had written to An Gúm about the entry in De Bhaldraithe's English-Irish Dictionary regarding the entry under thanks that indicated A thousand thanks! - go raibh céad maith agat! but haven't heard from them yet.

I haven't written to them yet regarding the pronunciation issue(s) in Foclóir Póca since I figured I would give ample time for other contributors here to mention already known discrepancies or findings of new discrepancies. Looks like to date, the only discrepancy mentioned is the one for anois, where I've speculated that the pronunciation ə'nos', may simply be a typographical error. I think I'll wait a wee bit longer in case anyone comes up with anything else. If not, the first thing I'll do when writing them is to compliment them on publishing such a fine dictionary - a book with only one typographical error is almost unheard of, especially considering the dictionary was published before our age of automatic spell checkers, etc.

Slán go fóill and thanks for asking!

Mac Léinn

1. Tráthnóna is such a cool word - as I'm sure you already know it means afternoon, evening (up to nightfall) so it applies at this very moment to you West Coasters and to us East Coasters alike!