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Mícheál
Member Username: Mícheál
Post Number: 272 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:39 pm: |
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Since St. Patrick's Day is coming up and since the days of the saints serve an important role in Irish culture, I would appreciate a clarification concerning the use of the "Lá Naomh" phrase. Is it okay to use it? A Google search tonight produced 48,600 entries for "Lá Naomh" and I wanted to clarify in my own mind what was talked about in the St. Valentine's thread. Go raibh maith agaibh. Maidhc Maidhc (as Nua-Bhaile i gConnecticut) Má bhíonn amhras ort téigh chun na leabharlainne - Kate Charles Fáilte roimh cheartú
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2632 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:55 am: |
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The best rendering of St. Patrick's Day is Lá Fhéile Pádraig, which can be shortened to Lá 'le Pádraig. Try googling "lá fhéile" for a change. When it comes to what I call "the symbolic use of Irish", a lot of defective crap just keeps getting passed around and around among the Great Unwashed, aka An Daoscarshlua. ;-) "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Suaimhneas
Member Username: Suaimhneas
Post Number: 243 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 06:20 am: |
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Lá Fhéile.... I understand to mean the Feastday or the Festival of...so it would seem more appropraite than Lá Naomh |
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Mícheál
Member Username: Mícheál
Post Number: 273 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 09:47 am: |
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Thank, Dennis, but I knew when I asked I should have been more explicit. I had searched "lá fhéile" and had gotten 21,700 entiries. "Lá Fhéile Pádraig" ("lá fhéile") is what I use. I am not questioning the use of that expression. I am still confused as to why "Lá Naomh," at 48,600 entries, is so prevelant at so many different places if it is not to be used. A look at the Google evidence today reveals these Google results: Google search / entries: "Lá Naomh" 48,600 "Lá fhéile" 21,700 "Lá féile" 1,710 "Lá Fhéile Pádraig" 10,800 "Lá Fhéile Phádraig" 132 "Lá Naomh Pádraig" 5 So, my question is, can "Lá Naomh" be safely used, and, if not, what is the grammatical or other reason for not doing so? One reason is, as you mentioned, that a lot of errors can get multiplied rather easily across cyberspace and humankind. There are times too when languages have rules imposed upon them that the speakers of the language do not follow. For example, during the 18th century, grammatical rules from Latin were structured onto English. Whether something is correct or not depends upon what side of the grammarian fence one stands. Numerous instances of I/me conflict abound in our speech and written documents. Usage in society versus correct usage is a recurring theme in philology. Thanks again for your thoughts on this. Maidhc (as Nua-Bhaile i gConnecticut) Má bhíonn amhras ort téigh chun na leabharlainne - Kate Charles Fáilte roimh cheartú
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2633 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:33 am: |
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quote:"Lá Naomh" 48,600 No idea why you got this ridiculously high number. quote:"Lá Fhéile Pádraig" 10,800 "Lá Naomh Pádraig" 5 These are the numbers you should pay attention to. quote:So, my question is, can "Lá Naomh" be safely used, and, if not, what is the grammatical or other reason for not doing so? Not safely used. The reason is convention. It similar to the reason we say "a chara", not "mo chara". "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Mac_léinn
Member Username: Mac_léinn
Post Number: 209 Registered: 01-2007
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:43 am: |
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A Mhaidhc, I don't know if this addresses your question, but a few days ago, Aonghus mentioned that the use of Naomh is relatively new to the Irish language and that saints were/are referred to simply by their names, without the preface "Naomh." Mac Léinn as Nua-Gheirsí. Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin, go raibh céad maith agaibh. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2635 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:52 am: |
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Dála an scéil, a Mhaidhc, tabhair súil ar na coimicí "Gomaith" a luaigh Aonghus. Feicfidh tú "Beannachtaí na Féile Vailintín" ansin. That's the traditional formula for giving greetings on any particular holy/holiday. "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 5061 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:55 am: |
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Maidhc, did you remember to quote? I only get 1010 hits for "Lá Naomh" and "Lá fhéile" gets 20,700. The top of the list for Lá Naomh look like tyros, and certainly nothing on the first page looks reliable. Except this curiosity www.ucc.ie/research/celt/published/G100005A/text033.html I'm not an expert on this version of Irish but I think that it is one day st patrick rather than "St patrick's day" The date being referred to is 473 AD. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2636 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:11 am: |
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quote:I'm not an expert on this version of Irish but I think that it is one day st patrick rather than "St patrick's day" M457.3 Ard Macha d'fothuccadh lá Naomh Patraicc iarna edhbairt do ó Dhaire mac Fionnchadha mic Eoghain mic Nialláin. lá = la = le anseo: "Ard Mhacha being founded by St. Patrick..." "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 95 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:42 am: |
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quote:So, my question is, can "Lá Naomh" be safely used, and, if not, what is the grammatical or other reason for not doing so? Convention is the only reason. You probably say "St. P.'s Day" and not "(Day of) Holy P.'s Feast" in English, as well you say "Lá Fhéile P." and not "Lá Naomh P." or "Lá Fhéile Naomh P." or something else. "Lá Naomh P." is a bad literary translation. BTW: Saints' names aren't lenited following Naomh or Féile. So it's always " Lá Ḟéile P." and not " Lá Ḟéile Ṗ." Slán Lars |
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Mícheál
Member Username: Mícheál
Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 01:33 pm: |
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Now I am beginning to doubt how the searching algorithm works in Google. Or should I blame it on user error? I had done all my searches using quotes prior to today. I now tried doing the searches again using various combinations and making certain that the phrases were enclosed in quotes. "Lá Naomh" 1,010 "La Naomh" 867 "Lá fhéile" 22,100 "Lá féile" 1,710 "La Fhéile Pádraig" 104 "Lá Fhéile Phádraig" 134 "Lá Féile Phádraig" 13 "Lá Fhéile Pádraig" 10,800 "Beannachtaí na Féile Pádraig" 601 "Beannachtaí na Féile Vailintín" 17 Quite a popular saint this Patrick! Whatever the source, Google, Wikipedia, the guy next door, we librarians always go by the mantra of identifying the experts in a field and going with what they say. When in doubt, check it out. So, thanks again to the experts here for enlightning me on the use of these terms. When I have more time one day, I am going to datamine the archives for material posted by you all. You are a resourceful group of mentors! Beidh mé go dtí Esopus anocht. Ó Dháltaí na Gaeilge, beidh mé ag teacht chugat. Le meas, Maidhc Maidhc (as Nua-Bhaile i gConnecticut) Má bhíonn amhras ort téigh chun na leabharlainne - Kate Charles Fáilte roimh cheartú
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2638 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 02:11 pm: |
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quote:we librarians always go by the mantra of identifying the experts in a field Niall Ó Dónaill!!! Is eisean an saineolaí. Beidh tú ar mhuin na muice chomh luath agus a bheas FGB agat. Go n-éirí an bóthar go hEsopus leat! "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Paul (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 02:45 pm: |
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A chairde, Maidir leis an bhfocal "Lá," is focal firinscneach é, nach ea? So, ipso facto: "Lá Féile Pádraig"?? Le meas, Paul (Ní maith liom Wikipedia... is é seo an "Cliff Klaven" den idirlíon.) |
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Scathach
Member Username: Scathach
Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 03:29 pm: |
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Tá "lá" firinscneach gan dabht ach deirtear Lá Fhéile Pádraig - St. Patrick's Day Lá Fhéile Bríde - St. Brigid's Day Lá Fhéile na Naomh Uile - All Saints' Day Lá Fhéile Stiofáin - St Stephen's Day Ach Lá Coille/ Lá Caille - New Year's Day |
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 96 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 03:54 pm: |
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quote:So, ipso facto: "Lá Féile Pádraig"?? Tá an dara focal ina ainmneach thar ceann an ghinidigh (.i. foirm ainmnigh agus feidhm ginidigh) agus mar sin tá sé séimhithe. Le meas, Lars |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 5063 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 05:33 pm: |
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I think the discrepancy between with accaents and without can be explained by different coding for accented letters - some being counted, some not. Lá féile is ea Lá Fhéile Padráig in Éirinn! Ach fainic! quote:Laß dir von keinem Fachmann imponieren, der dir erzählt: »Lieber Freund, das mache ich schon seit zwanzig Jahren so!« - Man kann eine Sache auch zwanzig Jahre lang falsch machen. Ná géill d'aon saineolaí a deir "A chara, táim a dhéanamh seo mar sin le scór bliain". Is féidir rud a dhéanamh ar dóigh mhícheart ar feadh scór bliain! -- Kurt Tucholsky |
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Domhnall
Member Username: Domhnall
Post Number: 805 Registered: 06-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 07:47 am: |
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Lá Naomh would be a slight touch of Béarlachas.. St.Brigid's day uses fhéile.. A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river
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