mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (January-February) » Archive through February 22, 2007 » Use of "Lá Naomh" « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 272
Registered: 11-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 10:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Since St. Patrick's Day is coming up and since the days of the saints serve an important role in Irish culture, I would appreciate a clarification concerning the use of the "Lá Naomh" phrase. Is it okay to use it? A Google search tonight produced 48,600 entries for "Lá Naomh" and I wanted to clarify in my own mind what was talked about in the St. Valentine's thread.

Go raibh maith agaibh.

Maidhc

Maidhc (as Nua-Bhaile i gConnecticut)
Má bhíonn amhras ort téigh chun na leabharlainne - Kate Charles
Fáilte roimh cheartú

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2632
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The best rendering of St. Patrick's Day is Lá Fhéile Pádraig, which can be shortened to Lá 'le Pádraig. Try googling "lá fhéile" for a change. When it comes to what I call "the symbolic use of Irish", a lot of defective crap just keeps getting passed around and around among the Great Unwashed, aka An Daoscarshlua. ;-)

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Suaimhneas
Member
Username: Suaimhneas

Post Number: 243
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 06:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lá Fhéile.... I understand to mean the Feastday or the Festival of...so it would seem more appropraite than Lá Naomh

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 273
Registered: 11-2004


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 09:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thank, Dennis, but I knew when I asked I should have been more explicit. I had searched "lá fhéile" and had gotten 21,700 entiries. "Lá Fhéile Pádraig" ("lá fhéile") is what I use. I am not questioning the use of that expression. I am still confused as to why "Lá Naomh," at 48,600 entries, is so prevelant at so many different places if it is not to be used. A look at the Google evidence today reveals these Google results:

Google search / entries:

"Lá Naomh" 48,600
"Lá fhéile" 21,700
"Lá féile" 1,710
"Lá Fhéile Pádraig" 10,800
"Lá Fhéile Phádraig" 132
"Lá Naomh Pádraig" 5

So, my question is, can "Lá Naomh" be safely used, and, if not, what is the grammatical or other reason for not doing so?

One reason is, as you mentioned, that a lot of errors can get multiplied rather easily across cyberspace and humankind.

There are times too when languages have rules imposed upon them that the speakers of the language do not follow. For example, during the 18th century, grammatical rules from Latin were structured onto English. Whether something is correct or not depends upon what side of the grammarian fence one stands. Numerous instances of I/me conflict abound in our speech and written documents. Usage in society versus correct usage is a recurring theme in philology.

Thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Maidhc (as Nua-Bhaile i gConnecticut)
Má bhíonn amhras ort téigh chun na leabharlainne - Kate Charles
Fáilte roimh cheartú

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2633
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"Lá Naomh" 48,600

No idea why you got this ridiculously high number.
quote:

"Lá Fhéile Pádraig" 10,800

"Lá Naomh Pádraig" 5

These are the numbers you should pay attention to.
quote:

So, my question is, can "Lá Naomh" be safely used, and, if not, what is the grammatical or other reason for not doing so?

Not safely used. The reason is convention. It similar to the reason we say "a chara", not "mo chara".

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mac_léinn
Member
Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 209
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Mhaidhc,

I don't know if this addresses your question, but a few days ago, Aonghus mentioned that the use of Naomh is relatively new to the Irish language and that saints were/are referred to simply by their names, without the preface "Naomh."

Mac Léinn as Nua-Gheirsí. Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin, go raibh céad maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2635
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dála an scéil, a Mhaidhc, tabhair súil ar na coimicí "Gomaith" a luaigh Aonghus. Feicfidh tú "Beannachtaí na Féile Vailintín" ansin. That's the traditional formula for giving greetings on any particular holy/holiday.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5061
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 10:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maidhc,

did you remember to quote? I only get 1010 hits for "Lá Naomh" and "Lá fhéile" gets 20,700.

The top of the list for Lá Naomh look like tyros, and certainly nothing on the first page looks reliable.
Except this curiosity

www.ucc.ie/research/celt/published/G100005A/text033.html

I'm not an expert on this version of Irish but I think that it is one day st patrick rather than "St patrick's day"
The date being referred to is 473 AD.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2636
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I'm not an expert on this version of Irish but I think that it is one day st patrick rather than "St patrick's day"

M457.3

Ard Macha d'fothuccadh lá Naomh Patraicc iarna edhbairt do ó Dhaire mac Fionnchadha mic Eoghain mic Nialláin.


lá = la = le anseo: "Ard Mhacha being founded by St. Patrick..."

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 95
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

So, my question is, can "Lá Naomh" be safely used, and, if not, what is the grammatical or other reason for not doing so?



Convention is the only reason.
You probably say "St. P.'s Day" and not "(Day of) Holy P.'s Feast" in English, as well you say "Lá Fhéile P." and not "Lá Naomh P." or "Lá Fhéile Naomh P." or something else.
"Lá Naomh P." is a bad literary translation.

BTW: Saints' names aren't lenited following Naomh or Féile.
So it's always "Lá Ḟéile P." and not "Lá Ḟéile Ṗ."

Slán
Lars

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 274
Registered: 11-2004


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 01:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Now I am beginning to doubt how the searching algorithm works in Google. Or should I blame it on user error? I had done all my searches using quotes prior to today. I now tried doing the searches again using various combinations and making certain that the phrases were enclosed in quotes.

"Lá Naomh" 1,010
"La Naomh" 867
"Lá fhéile" 22,100
"Lá féile" 1,710
"La Fhéile Pádraig" 104
"Lá Fhéile Phádraig" 134
"Lá Féile Phádraig" 13
"Lá Fhéile Pádraig" 10,800

"Beannachtaí na Féile Pádraig" 601
"Beannachtaí na Féile Vailintín" 17

Quite a popular saint this Patrick!

Whatever the source, Google, Wikipedia, the guy next door, we librarians always go by the mantra of identifying the experts in a field and going with what they say. When in doubt, check it out. So, thanks again to the experts here for enlightning me on the use of these terms.

When I have more time one day, I am going to datamine the archives for material posted by you all. You are a resourceful group of mentors!

Beidh mé go dtí Esopus anocht. Ó Dháltaí na Gaeilge, beidh mé ag teacht chugat.

Le meas,

Maidhc

Maidhc (as Nua-Bhaile i gConnecticut)
Má bhíonn amhras ort téigh chun na leabharlainne - Kate Charles
Fáilte roimh cheartú

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2638
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 02:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

we librarians always go by the mantra of identifying the experts in a field

Niall Ó Dónaill!!! Is eisean an saineolaí. Beidh tú ar mhuin na muice chomh luath agus a bheas FGB agat. Go n-éirí an bóthar go hEsopus leat!

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 02:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,

Maidir leis an bhfocal "Lá," is focal firinscneach é, nach ea?

So, ipso facto: "Lá Féile Pádraig"??

Le meas, Paul

(Ní maith liom Wikipedia... is é seo an "Cliff Klaven" den idirlíon.)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Scathach
Member
Username: Scathach

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 03:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá "lá" firinscneach gan dabht ach deirtear

Lá Fhéile Pádraig - St. Patrick's Day
Lá Fhéile Bríde - St. Brigid's Day
Lá Fhéile na Naomh Uile - All Saints' Day
Lá Fhéile Stiofáin - St Stephen's Day

Ach

Lá Coille/ Lá Caille - New Year's Day

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 96
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 03:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

So, ipso facto: "Lá Féile Pádraig"??


Tá an dara focal ina ainmneach thar ceann an ghinidigh
(.i. foirm ainmnigh agus feidhm ginidigh)
agus mar sin tá sé séimhithe.

Le meas,
Lars

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 5063
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 05:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think the discrepancy between with accaents and without can be explained by different coding for accented letters - some being counted, some not.

Lá féile is ea Lá Fhéile Padráig in Éirinn!



Ach fainic!

quote:

Laß dir von keinem Fachmann imponieren, der dir erzählt: »Lieber Freund, das mache ich schon seit zwanzig Jahren so!« - Man kann eine Sache auch zwanzig Jahre lang falsch machen.



Ná géill d'aon saineolaí a deir "A chara, táim a dhéanamh seo mar sin le scór bliain". Is féidir rud a dhéanamh ar dóigh mhícheart ar feadh scór bliain!

-- Kurt Tucholsky

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Domhnall
Member
Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 805
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 07:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lá Naomh would be a slight touch of Béarlachas..

St.Brigid's day uses fhéile..

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river



©Daltaí na Gaeilge