A Chairde,
I am aware that many on this site are not fond of the "Spoken Caighdeán Oifigiúil", the attempt to create a neutral or "standard" pronunciation.
I was curious as to whether or not one of the natural dialects was closest to the Lárchanúint. If so, which one would it be?
Another question I had was about the Tourmakeady dialect. On Wikipedia someone states that dialect and another Mayo dialect were the closest to Middle Irish. Does anyone have any info on that or is it just someone's opinion?

Alun,

I am just a beginner, and there are people here who have way more knowledge about this subject...

I found this at the Forbairt Naíonraí Teoranta website, scroll down to the bottom of the page:

http://www.naionrai.ie/tacaiocht/ceachtanna/index.en

"An Lárchanúint"

Lastly, a few words on the matter of "Standard Irish". This, like the Caighdeán Oifigiúil for written Irish, has sometimes been misunderstood, often at the expense of the living language in Gaeltacht areas, and of perfectly correct native forms. It is more correctly called the "lárchanúint" (central dialect), and is in fact an artificial creation. It was invented in the mid 1980s by Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann on the instructions of An Roinn Oideachais, who wanted a single pronunciation guide for An Foclóir Póca. The result was a very carefully constructed mixture of the commonest aspects of the various living dialects.

It would be wrong, however, to say that is now the only correct way to speak Irish. As stated in literature published by the Institiúid at the time: “For those already fluent in Irish, this core dialect is not meant to displace their existing dialect but is intended as an alternative medium for use in more formal contexts”. The project's research report also explicitly pointed out that they had avoided using the term “caighdeán labhartha” (standard speech). Therefore, even if you are not fluent, it is clear from this that there is no reason not to use the Irish of your own area if you wish, or that of the nearest Gaeltacht. After all, parents in Wexford do not bring their children up to speak Cavan English! In any case, the "larchanúint" was designed so that you can base the way you speak it on any one of the native dialects. Whatever your choice, the main thing is to try to encourage your children to speak well and accurately.

Sorry Alun,

I was going to type this yesterday but I had trouble finding tme to sit down in front of this computer.

What I wanted to say is that the "larchanúint" is a rather modern creation like the article says (1980's) and for something like this to catch on it will take more time, however, I do believe that is where Irish is heading anyway.

Thanks to radio, the internet, and television...more and more Irish is spreading to all parts of Ireland as well as to the rest of the world. The reason these dialects have been developing like they have is because they have been "isolated" for lack of a better term. However, I think that with modern technologies melting away their "isolationism," Irish like most languages will begin to blend itself into a more uniform language in terms of pronunciation.

While the "larchanúint" was a great idea, they may have made the mistake of assuming that the mass public would accept a proposed artificial pronunciation that was created by a group of a few people. The general public accepted the spelling reforms with little rejection beacuse it didn't affect their Irish to an extreme degree. Yes they had to learn new spellings and grammar rules, but they still had the spoken Irish to fall back on. The "larchanúint" is dangerous because it says that the way one speaks is incorrect. And that can't be said because of dialects, accents, native languages...ect.

Very well put, Do_chinniúint. I believe that as it is in other languages, ranges of reasonable possiblities occur when communities come together, especially as you described in this modern technological age. Mutual understanding results. Take for example the variation in pronunciation that exists for maith in different dialects. One is not thrown off if one hears "mah" or "my" and conversation continues to flow. Eventually, pronunciation guides will indicate, as is done in any language, possibilities of acceptance in speech. The coming together of Gaeilge while incorporating regional dialects will be wonderful for all of us to experience. And how glorious for us that it is happening now.

A Mhícheál,

How glorious indeed, however, I must confess there are days I wish Irish would get on with it ;0)

The sad thing about the "larchanúint" is that it really wasn't a bad idea after all. Logically, if getting the dialects to accept the irregularites was impossible then getting them to accept the similarities would have been my choice of action also.

And I honestly believe that's what they were trying to do.
Creat a standard pronunciation that contained the most basic and generally accepted pronunciations among the dialects. It is important to remember that when we say there are 3 dialects that is only half true. There are actually more than that...I think I heard 28 or 29 actual Irish dialects quoted here. But they can all be placed in their 3 main regional locations.

One of the complaints I have read about the "larchanúint" is that it tends to favor Connacht Irish. But doesn't Connact Irish contain the most dialects? I am not a math person by any means, but doesn't an average usually reflect the greatest sampling? I mean lets say there are 29 dialects of Irish (don't quote me on that I am just using the number) and 20 dialects come from Connacht...wouldn't the average value for pronuncation favor Connacht?

I think the greatest flaw of the Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann was that they only looked at the dialects and their pronunciation. They neglected to look at the number of people who were actually speaking that dialect. I said this in another post, Ulster Irish has been called the underdog when it comes to Irish, which is funny to me because it has the most speakers.

Scríobh Do_chinniúint: How glorious indeed, however, I must confess there are days I wish Irish would get on with it ;0)

Aontaímse leatsa agus "Amen"! While dialects serve an important role in a language's development, languages that meld rather than fragment thrive. At least that is my take on my readings and discussions about the growth and fall of languages. Bím ag foghlaim Gaeilge - bits and all.

Le meas,

Maidhc

Marcus Tanner calls Belfast "'The liveliest Gaeltacht in Ireland.'" Whatever dialect they speak is fine with me.

Tá tú an-bhog le Gaeilgeoirí Bhéal Feirste, a Mhaidhcilín, agus an-chrua ar aos óg do chanúint féin, na daoine úd a bhfuil an t/d caol "nua" acu: an aberration that some young male and female speakers exhibit in pronunciation, which is symptomatic of a lack of fluency. Nach mar sin a bhíonn sé i gcónaí: ár muintir féin a náiríonn muid!?

The liveliest Gaeltacht in Ireland is Gweedore ;-)

Closest to the standard you say...

I'd have to with munster.
Gaeilge Uladh - It's Caidé this agus dtig leat the other..
Conamara - they lash in imaginary letters seoD é mo chara
munster - it's a bit of Conas tánn tú versus the Caighdeán Conas atá tú?

Tá mo chuid Gaeilge ar fud na háite mar gheall ar seo.. Bhí conaí orm, i gceann uilig de na Gaeltachtaí ag am éigin agus blás gach áit i mo chaint...

Nach cuma?

Níl ach dornán duine i Maigh Eo agus gaeilge acu.

Lig do Ghaeilge RnaG an lárchanúint a chumadh!

Beidh tionchar ag na canúintí uile ar an gcuid is mó den phobail lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht - agus sin mar is ceart do bheith.

---

Tabhair a dhóthain den ardléann do Ghaeilgeoir agus ní Gaeilgeoir a thuilleadh é ach SCOLÁIRE. Agus, a chairde mo chleibh, is iontach na héanacha iad na scoláirí nuair a bhainnean siad amach beanna arda an léinn mhóir. Tugann siad gráin don uile fhocal den teanga Ghaeilge ach na focla a bhfuil seacht sreama na seanaoise orthu. Níl canúint is fearr leo ná an chanúint atá marbh le céad blian.
Bíonn a chanúint fhéin ag gach duine acu agus murar féidir leat í sin a labhairt leo go clocharach pislíneach mar is dual labhróidh siad Béarla leat. Bíonn Béarla an-bhreá acu go hiondúil. Le fírinne agus leis an gceart bíonn sé acu chomh maith nó níos fearr ná an Ghaeilge féin. Béarla gan chanúint a chleactan siad, rud a chuireann ar a gcumas labhairt le formhór chuile Bhéarlóir. Buntáiste mór é seo gan dabht.

Breandán Ó hEithir, Feabhra 1958

When I was a teenager, I remember a trip we took to Maryland. Next to the motel was a bowling alley, so I headed over to hang out. I got to talking with a girl who was about my age and she invited me to a game of "tin pins." I accepted the invitation, but found it odd that people would bowl with pins made out of tin. Well, we walked over to our lane and it turned out to be a regular game of bowling. I asked her repeatedly why she called the pins tin when they were actually made out of wood, and finally I understood that she meant "ten" as in "ten pins." I also had a girlfriend from West Virginia and she once remarked that my buddy had nice "ass," which shocked the heck out of me. We finally figured out that she was saying "eyes." Over the years I've noticed that folks for the Southeast U.S. say many other words differently, like "beel" for "bill."

My point is: if you look in any dictionary, the pronunciation for "ten" is "ten," "eyes" is "eyes," and for "bill" it's "bill." Maybe someone from the Southeast U.S. could explain if they have objections to the standard pronunciations listed in English-language dictionaries but if English-language dictionaries can be produced with standardized pronunciations, why can't the same be done with Irish dictionaries?

(Message edited by mac_léinn on February 15, 2007)

No one has yet pointed out in this thread that the Lárchanúint has nothing to do with the Caighdeán Oifigúil. The former relates to pronunciation, and was only an (ill-conceived) suggestion made in the 1980s. The latter relates to grammar, spelling and vocabulary, and was originally devised in the 1940s and I think finally officially adopted in the 1950s. The Caighdeán, unlike the Lárchanúint is not just a suggestion: it is a standard used in the education system and used to mark exams. They are completely different.

" if English-language dictionaries can be produced with standardized pronunciations, why can't the same be done with Irish dictionaries?"

Of course the same can be done: you just have to agree what the standard pronunciation is first. In fact, Foclóir Póca already publishes pronunciations, but in some cases the pronunciations indicated are those used by ___not a single speaker of Irish___, like "anosh" for anois, because they were artificially designed. The standard pronunciations given in English dictionaries are not artificial: they are used by 10s or millions or 100s of millions, are not just "made up". Wouldn't it be a good idea to just say "Cork Irish is the Standard pronunciation" and print that in dictionaries, and tell everyone else to get behind that?

In fact, Foclóir Póca already publishes pronunciations, but in some cases the pronunciations indicated are those used by ___not a single speaker of Irish___, like "anosh" for anois,

It seems everytime a discussion of a standard pronunciation comes up, some one always seems to bring up the one (and only?) example of the non-existent pronunciation for anois. Is it possible that the pronunciation listed in Foclóir Póca is simply an error? Was it just a typographical error between using o instead of i? Isn't it true that every publication in the world is prone to errors, and should we be judging the quality of a publication by the presence of one error? In other words, can some one provide an example besides anois where the pronunciation in Foclóir Póca is non-existent in any of the Irish dialects?

Éireannach brings up an interesting proposal that I have often wondered about...

We know that the only "proposed pronunciations" for Irish in a dictionary comes from Foclóir Póca created in the 1980's as an "average" pronunciation derived by comparing the different dialects and choosing the sounds "they" felt would be the most neutral to all dialects.

I don't know if the sounds they chose can be called artificial because they are sounds that actually came from the various dialects of Irish they sampled. However, the contructions of their pronunciations can be called artificial because no one dialect has this exact form of pronunciation.

As for the Lárchanúint idea, it was being thrown around back in the 30's-40's when they created the Caighdeán Oifigúil. No one knows exactly why they didn't go that far, some people say because they knew Irish wasn't ready for it, some say that they hoped the Lárchanúint would evolve naturally, and the list goes on and on...

But what I am curious about is the three main regional dialects? They have never created personal dictionaries that have "their" pronunciation system in a dictionary? If one goes to a language reference section in a library or book store and looks at all the dictionaries, one of the things you will notice is that there is at two or three dictionaries in every language that give a pronunciation scheme after every entry in a dictionary. But Irish does not?

Now I know the dialects like to try and be fair to each other, and I know that there aren't as many dictionaries for Irish as there are for other languages. However, there are a lot of them out there, so I find it incredible that one dictionary, even a very small one, has not been made by one of the main three regional dialects that show a reflection of their current pronunciation.

Or is there one out there and I don't know about it?

However, the contructions of their pronunciations can be called artificial because no one dialect has this exact form of pronunciation.

Artificial? The same conclusion can be made about any dictionary. For example, I have in front of me the Harper Collins Spanish College Dictionary, which contains over 355,000 entries. For each and every entry, there is but one pronunciation. In fact, I can't remember ever seeing a dictionary in any language that contained more than one pronunciation per word, yet we don't call these pronunciations artificial. There seems to be something unique about the reaction by some to the standardized pronunciation of Irish, which doesn't exist in English, Spanish, French, and other languages. And all these languages have wide ranges in regional pronunciations, but the cultures that speak them seem to be amenable to a standardized pronunciation.

By the way, I'm still looking for an example other than "anois."

The verb ending suffixes with f, the endings in adh (there appears to be no definition of pronounciation at all here), what to do as a conequence of there been no f (like add h, or devoice g to k etc).

As for nouns, 'eireball' tail is 'ruball' I got from a Conemara person I once met. I believe there are a good few are ancient and should have been changed. Maybe Mick Rua adn the other native lady (sorry I can't get you name right now) might be able to give some real examples.

However, let's not mix up 'no dialect has it' with 'most dialects have it' and 'a few have it'; there are natural variences, and at least one can work forward or add a rule to change it based on the caighdeán.

For example, one hears Donegal people add a [j] (like english y in yet) to words with front vowels 'jeasóg', 'jiad', 'jiascaire'. An Tenaga Bheo also shows how long vowels at the end of words are shortened 'amadán' --> 'amadan'.

In Oileán Chléire, we more radically see 'samhradh' as 'smhro/swro' 'geimhreadh' as 'gíri' 'codhladh' as 'colo'. It *looks like* -adh is a type of [o], ad in Irish Consonant + vowel +l/r can often become C+ l/r as in bologam ->blogam, and something simialar has happened to summer.

We can do transformation to link the dialects. I think the real problem with the Caighdeán is lack of material to show how irish is used etc. Maybe if a new population started to use Irish, a new standard would be needed, but it's not too bad for us learners when it comes to ethemology, except for where the respelling made it more obscure

If one goes to a language reference section in a library or book store and looks at all the dictionaries, one of the things you will notice is that there is at two or three dictionaries in every language that give a pronunciation scheme after every entry in a dictionary. But Irish does not?

Take a look at Foclóir Póca (available here at Daltaí or at Borders and Barnes and Noble) or Foclóir Scóile (available here at Daltaí) since they both contain pronunciations for each Irish headword.

Take a look at Foclóir Póca (available here at Daltaí or at Borders and Barnes and Noble) or Foclóir Scóile (available here at Daltaí) since they both contain pronunciations for each Irish headword.

As you probably know, these are the same book . . . FS simply has larger type.

I prefer The Educational Irish - English Pronouncing Dictionary by Seamus Ó Dúirinne and Padraig Ó Dálaigh.

Years ago I purchased "Lárchanúint don Ghaeilge" by Ó Baoill in which he further elaborates on the system. He does address the pronunciation issues and the natural dialects. Unfortunately the book is only in Irish and therefore less accessible to learners.

Mac léinn,

While I am no expert on the matter, one thing that has to be said that differs between Irish and a good majority of the world's languages is that while there may be regional differences...most languages have accepted one dialect to be the official standard of that language in both spoken and written form.

From the bits and pieces I read here and there, my understanding is that Irish has cemented the written form, but continues to consciously avoid standardizing the spoken form because it would not represent all three dialects equally. This seems to be a real problem with Irish.

What is the harm with saying that one of the three dialects is the official standard form of Irish? I think people don't exactly pay attention to what the phrase "official standard" means. They spend to much time on "standard" and not enough time on "official."

All this means is that all Irish used for official matters (government, public services, educational materials, ect...) must be conducted in the same form of Irish. And what that really means is that all the paperwork must be conducted in the same form of Irish for the sake of consistancy. Now if all three dialects are using the Caighdeán Oifigúil, then what's the problem?

If the problem is choosing one dialect over the others as the offical standard, then one has to ask oneself a few questions:

Where are the largest populations of Irish people?
Where are most of the businesses in Ireland?
Where are most of the cities?
Where are the majority of the schools?
And so forth...

And I hate to be so blunt...but it doesn't take a rocket scientest to figure this out.

I have read in a few threads here the mentality that we shouldn't ask the other dialects to conform to one dialect, and I absolutely agree. I think we can keep our regional differences and still claim one of them to be the official standard.

However, one must be prepared to accept the changes that come with this. The biggest being the schools. The official standard would be the form of Irish taught in the school systems, and we all know through the many debates that have taken place here what a can of worms that can be.

But then, isn't all change?

No one dialect is sufficiently dominant.

quote:

Where are most of the businesses in Ireland?
Where are most of the cities?
Where are the majority of the schools?

In Leinster (Dublin and surrounds), where the language has been gone longest.

Aonghus...

One could debate that the reason why no one dialect is sufficienty dominant is because the Irish haven't allowed it. Every time an idea gets proposed here, the first comment made by people is that they would like to see it represent all three dialects.

The way I see it, if there was one place something like the Lárchanúint could thrive in it would be a place like Leinster. Since it is a relatively dialect neutral place itself, the Lárchanúint might just have a safe harbor to grow in.

Do Chinniúint,

Believe it or not, my educational background and some of my work experience is in rocket science. Maybe that's why I can't figure it out. I always thought that we Americans, from Seattle to Iowa to Boston to New Jersey and all points between, all spoke the same, but after watching a TV show called "Do You Speak American," by a very popular and respected narrator whose name doesn't come to mind, I became aware of all the different dialects that exist in the US of A. The program basically was about the narrator traveling all over the US, starting in Maine and winding up in CA or WS (I forget) and talking with folks from all over and you would be amazed at how different we Americans talk! Yet, we have one standard form of pronunciation that is used in all dictionaries. That's the only point that I'm trying to make - that with Irish isn't it the same thing? There are many ways to correctly speak Irish, but there is one official pronunciation as shown in Focloir Poca/Focloir Scoile, and that was arrived at by a consensus of scholars at the time it was put together.

I can't answer your question about why the Irish don't choose a particular dialect, since I'm not informed enough on the subject. I can only observe what has happened. I enjoy discussing this subject with you and the other contributors, but it's time to get back to my rockets.

Do You Speak American is also available in a book, by Robert MacNeil and William Cran.

http://www.amazon.com/You-Speak-American-Robert-MacNeil/dp/0156032880/sr=1-1/qid =1171705074/ref=sr_1_1/002-6164546-2139213?ie=UTF8&s=books

I saw the show and found it fascinating.

Robert MacNeil is best known as half of the MacNeil - Lehrer News Hour on PBS.

A side on spelling

http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j22/irish.php

A book by Mari C. Jones entitled "Language Obsolesence and Revitalization" (Clarendon Press-Oxford 1998) deals with the issues of dialects and standardization in the Welsh situation. I got the impression that in that country the speakers were more receptive to a more standard version even at the expense of the local dialects. Admittedly they are dealing with a Northern/Southern difference rather than 3 dialects, but it raises some valid points.
I take issue with Aonghus' point about no dialect being sufficiently dominant: Munster Irish is without question the weakest and Connacht is probably the strongest with Ulster somewhat behind Connacht.
As the Gaeltachtaí continue to wither away perhaps it is time to focus more on the Galltacht learners who may be the last hope of the language.

Mac Léinn,

I hope I didn't come across as targeting you or anything, that wasn't the purpose of my post. ;0)

What I was trying to say, and this addresses Alun's last post, that an Official Irish will have to reflect Ireland and not the Gaeltachts. And since the majority of Ireland does not speak Irish, the Lárchanúint is ideal because it is neutral in design as to not associate or disassociate with the current forms of Irish being spoken.

I agree with Alun and Aonghus in the statement that no dialect is more dominant than the others, however, in recent years I have to give credit to the Connacht dialects (especially Galway) for their hard work in creating mass media in Irish. (Radio, Television, Internet...) I feel comfortable in saying that if a person who has never heard Irish before decided to check it out and started searching for it, 8 out 10 things they are going to find are going to be in the Connacht dialects. Why? Because they are most likely going to be using the internet and Galway has cornered the market so to speak, which is not a bad thing at all :0)

"As the Gaeltachtaí continue to wither away perhaps it is time to focus more on the Galltacht learners who may be the last hope of the language."

I am sorry but I cannot agree with this statement just yet. It is not fair to put the fate of the language on the shoulders of the Gaeltachts who don't have the means to support such a burden. The problem in my opinion is not that the Gaeltacht areas are withering, it's that the English speaking areas are thriving.

Perhaps the old say is true, "the best defense is a good offense." Maybe it is time to start concentrating Ireland's efforts on English speaking Ireland? If half of the pressure was put on the majority of Ireland to use Irish, as is put on the few in the Gaeltachts, who knows what might happen?

Most of the people in Leinster are originally from outside it, or second generation at best; so they can't be seen as neutral.

RnaG schedule is evenly split between the Gaeltachtaí, with even the small ones getting a look in. Dublin and Belfast do too. Don't be fooled by the Headquarters being in Casla.

TG4 similarly.

Lá is dominated by Ulster Irish; Foinse by Standard Irish, with the only column in dialect being munster Irish.

But in any case, the differences are exaggerated greatly on this board. People are basing their views on dialect studies which obviously focus on the differences.

The only person who has first hand experience afaik is Lughaidh - and he happens to be fluent in the dialect which most diverges, Ulster/Gaoth Dobhair.

But (and I spent the day with two people from Donegal ) I have less difficulty with understanding Ulster Irish than I have with Ulster English.

The dialect thing is simply a psychological mechanism to shirk learning. They are dialects, not seperate langauges

Scíobh Aonghus: I have less difficulty with understanding Ulster Irish than I have with Ulster English. An suimiúil an Aonghuis. I met a fellow the other day who's from just outside Armagh. He's a very intelligent business man and well spoken, but I had quite a challenge in trying to understand what he was saying! I've spoken with many Irish people in and outside of Ireland and never experienced anything like it.

A Do Chinniúint, thanks for mentioning it, but I didn't find your posting(s) at all targeting me. On the contrary, I enjoy reading you postings on this and other subject matters. I really think it would be a good idea for you to get a copy of "Foclóir Póca or Foclóir Scoile, as you'll get a good insight into the suggested pronunciation for each Irish headword. Except for the entry of anois I don't know of any typographical errors. So, it that's the only typo, that dictionary might be one of the most accurate publications in history, even though some use that single typographical error to consider the work of the esteemed team of contributors to that text to be somehow invalid - go figure! . Here's a suggested source for Foclóir Póca:
http://www.amazon.com/Focloir-Poca-English-Irish-Irish-English-Dictionary/dp/1857910478/sr=8-1/qid=1171807334/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-9444117-6352812?ie=UTF8&s=books. You may want to consider the Cionaodh's recommendation above, but I don't know if that text is still in publication.

Aaron, thanks for providing the narrator/author's name, Robert MacNeil. He also did a program on "Do You Speak English" which I haven't seen but hear it's also very well done. I think I'll run out (or e-mail Amazon) and buy his book "Do You Speak American" Thanks!

Scríobh BRN: The dialect thing is simply a psychological mechanism to shirk learning. AGREED!

(Message edited by mac_léinn on February 18, 2007)

An interesting aside.

When Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin was working on Gugalaí Gug with children in Conamara, he came them the texts on CD to listen to, because he found that their pronunciations were not in dialect when they were reading.