Hello,

I don't speak Gaelic and only know a few words and phases. I listen to quite a bit of Irish music. It sounds pretty and would be cool to learn! I'm trying to find the Irish translation for the word "virginity". (I found the word for "virgin"- "maighdean") Also, how is it pronounced? If anyone can help me with this it is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

aodhan

What Gaelic are you looking for? Scots or Irish? This is the Irish:

virgin - maighdean - MY/MAY DJAN
virginity - maighdeanas - MY/MAY DJAN ASS

(Message edited by ceolmhar on February 06, 2007)

(Message edited by ceolmhar on February 06, 2007)

Irish Gaelic.
Thank you Ceolmhar!

aodhan

Iarr baint an úsáid as:

http://focal.ie/Home.aspx

Go raibh maith agat as do chuidiú sa chúram seo.

Wow, this dictionary is so much better than the ones that came up in my search.

aodhan

My sister gave me a CD as a present recently titled "Caoineadh na Maighdine" (the Virgin's Lament). It features Nóirín Ní Riain and the Monks of Glenstal Abbey. The music is a hybrid of sean nós (traditional) singing by Nóirín and Gregorian chant by the monks. The liner notes indicate that Nóirín learned over 1,000 traditional songs directly from an old villager.

Anyway, it's been my introduction to a fabulously talented signer (and the monks sound great also!) Has anyone heard of other CD's, etc by Nóirín? I would like to find out more about her sean nós songs and would appreciate any recommendations.

I have that CD too. The figure of 1,000 seems a bit high to me though... a new song every day for three years? Two new songs a week for ten years? It would certainly be possible (or have been possible, anyway) to collect that many songs if you were a very industrious folklorist (and a bit lax about counting variants as "new songs"), but probably not all from one person.

I'm thinking maybe something was lost in translation, and she got only céad amhrán really.

Other singers you'd probably like, then, would be Áine Bean Uí Laoi (straight-up Donegal sean-nós) and Éilín Ní Bheaglaoich (Munster sean-nós/classical fusion.)

Tá liosta anseo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B3ir%C3%ADn_N%C3%AD_Riain

Tá Vox de Nube againne.

I have a song called "Caoineadh na Mara/Amen" by Mary McLaughlin & William Coulter off of a CD called Celtic Requiem. (Not what you're looking for but...) I really like some of the songs and when you described your CD it reminded me of them. They sing in Irish too. Some of the songs have a very old school feel(chanty) and are very vocal heavy.

I haven't heard of Nóirín but it sounds like something I'll be into so I'll look into it.

aodhan

Interesting link Aonghus - GRMA. I see that Nóirín had done her Ph.D in "The Specificity of Christian Theosonetics." I couldn't find the word "theosonetics" in any dictionary, but when I googled on the word, I got to the site where Nóirín did her Ph.D, http://www.mic.ul.ie/theology/doctoralstudents.htm

which has this to say about "theosonetics."

quote:

Noirin successfully completed her thesis which is entitled - "The Specificity of Christian Theosonetics" and focuses on an in-depth study and representation of Sounds - primarily vocal sounds - as a means to religious experience from a Christian perspective.

Scrobh Abigail: I'm thinking maybe something was lost in translation, and she got only céad amhrán really.

But what exactly do you mean by céad - 100 or 120?. When you think of the oral tradition in Ireland and ancient Greece, I don't think the numbers are out of the question, especially when people would memorize the complete Illiad, etc. and pass it down from generation to generation. Since Nóirín's e-mail is listed on one of the web-pages, I think I'll e-mail her and ask her.

Thanks Abigail and Aodhan for the suggested CD's.

céad: uimhir measartha mór; an t-uimhir atá níos mó ná roinnt ach níos lú ná iliomad.

I ndáiríre, níl ach "100" i gcéad go hiondúil. Tá bríonna eile ann, ach tá siad sách speisialta dar liom (agus sách seanda freisin, cuid acu.)

Ní thuigfinn "1,048,576" ó "mega-" mura raibh bytes i gceist, agus ní thuigfinn "120" ó "céad" ach oiread mura raibh uibheacha i gceist.

Last time I checked, a maiden was a woman who had never been married, and a virgin was a person (male or female) who had never enganged in heterosexual penetrative sex. BIG DIFFERENCE. (I've always found even the existance of the latter label to be quite imbecilic, but how and ever). Be weary of some out-dated English dictionaries though which have wrong definitions for "virgin" such as "an unmarried woman".

Anyhow, the reason I bring this up is that I always thought the Irish word "maighdean" corresponded to the English word "maiden" (the pronunciation couldn't be more of a give-away). So why are people starting to use it as if it meant "virgin"? (Excuse me if I'm mistaken in its usage here.)

Cuireann an méid seo scéal grinn i gcuimhne dom!

Deir an leasuachtarán leis an uachtarán “Maraíodh 3 Brazilian troops inné.”

"Oh no!" a deir an t-uachtarán, "tá sé sin uafásach!"

Baintear stangadh as na daoine uilig san oifig. Fanann siad ina dtost, ag breathnú ar an uachtarán atá ina shuí ansin agus cheann ina lámha.

Faoi dheireadh, tógann sé a cheann agus fiafraíonn, “Cé mhéad is 'brazillion' ann?"

quote:

Anyhow, the reason I bring this up is that I always thought the Irish word "maighdean" corresponded to the English word "maiden" (the pronunciation couldn't be more of a give-away). So why are people starting to use it as if it meant "virgin"? (Excuse me if I'm mistaken in its usage here.)

Is fíor go bhfuair muid an focal "maighdean" ón mBéarla, i bhfad ó shin. Ní gá, áfach, go mbeadh an chiall chéanna acu anois. Úsáideann na Francaigh an focal "people(s)" go minic inniu, ach ní chiallaíonn sé "peuple" (daoine / pobal).

(Message edited by dennis on February 06, 2007)

"Last time I checked, a maiden was a woman who had never been married, and a virgin was a person (male or female) who had never engaged in heterosexual penetrative sex. BIG DIFFERENCE. (I've always found even the existance of the latter label to be quite imbecilic, but how and ever). Be weary of some out-dated English dictionaries though which have wrong definitions for "virgin" such as "an unmarried woman"."

Fear_na_mbróg brings up a good point....I am looking for a translation of a more modern definition of the word virginity(never having engaged in sex) and not one that means "unmarried".

Anymore thoughts or findings on this?
Thanks for the help!

aodhan

If there was no Irish word for it whatsoever, then I'd probably check the etymology of the English word, which will probably be latin, and then translate that to Irish. A good example is "srónbheannach" for "rhinoceros". The alternative would be to drag the English word in unchanged, but then of course we want Irish to sound as different from English as we can possibly make it.

As for "virgin" / "virginity", you can either just say "virgin" in Irish, or you can make up a new word, maybe something like: Ganghnéasóir (i.e. gan + gnéas + óir). What do yous think?

I'm not sure a new word is needed.

I would understand "maighdeanas" to mean "virginity" or, if applied to a female, "maidenhood" (not the same thing as "girlhood" or "young-unmarried-womanhood"!)

In theory there's no reason it couldn't apply to men as well (after all, Latin virgo is specifically female too) but because of the obvious link to "maiden" I doubt it would catch on in that sense. If a unisex term is required, "geanmnach" and "geanmnaíocht" might do, or "ógh" and "ócht" could be brought back.

To be honest I hate the words virgin and virginity, so I'd be happy if they don't make it into the Irish language. Do we have a word for someone who has never kicked a football, or never brushed their teeth, or never opened a cupboard, or never flipped a coin? It seems that such pervertness seems to invariably stem from religion -- I mean if they're not mutilating each other's genitals in parts of the world then they're having lude talk about sex and condemning sex in general, meanwhile they're getting no action themselves. All they do is create taboos and alienate people (e.g. virgins Vs non-virgins). Thankfully though the Catholic church is dying out in my part of the world.

And even if you did want to explain the word, virgin, then there's twenty-seven thousand different definitions. People go on to talk about what actually qualifies as "sex", and other nonsense such as the presence of the hymen.

Put me on the commitee and I'll make a list of words I refuse to translate, and virgin will be at the top of the list. If you want me to translate "That woman is a virgin", then here's your translation:

Níor bhuail an bhean sin craiceann le héinne riamh.

Do we have a word for someone who has never kicked a football, or never brushed their teeth, or never opened a cupboard, or never flipped a coin?
Not as far as I know, but it wouldn't bother me if we did...
Does Irish really need a word for "two days after tomorrow"? But we have one, and if I don't like it I can exact my revenge by refusing to use it.

Beagán as-ábhar, b'fhéidir, ach fuair mé rud spéisiúil i bhfoclóir Dinneen inniu: tagann ainnir ó in-fhir = "mannable"!

(Message edited by Abigail on February 06, 2007)

quote:

"two days after tomorrow"

Céard a thagann tar éis "arú amárach"?

quote:

tagann 'ainnir' ó 'in-fhir' = "mannable"!

Is suimiúil an tsanaseolaíocht í sin, ach tá sí mícheart. Pléadh an focal seo thiar sa bhliain 2001 ar an liosta Old-Irish-L. Seo teachtaireacht a chuir mé chuig an liosta ag an am sin:

OI "ander" or "ainder", modern "ainnir", all have a core meaning of "young woman". OI sources conflict on whether or not the word denotes a virgin or a married woman. Welsh "anner" and Breton "annoar", on the other hand, both mean "heifer". Vendryes (LEIA) says "il semble d'ailleurs qu'il faille partir du sens de « jeune animal » ; la spécialisation au sens de « jeune femme » serait secondaire. On a suggéré que fr. 'landier', issu de *andier, remonterait à un gaulois *anderos « veau »...." Vendryes takes an even-handed position on whether the word came from Basque or was borrowed into Basque from
Celtic, and offers no further etymology.

Tá an chuid eile den snáithe seo ar fáil i gcartlann an liosta, s.v. "ander" i Mí na Samhna, 2001 ag:

https://listserv.heanet.ie/old-irish-l.html

GRMA as mé a chur ar an eolas sin!

quote:

Céard a thagann tar éis "arú amárach"?

"Amainiris." Ceapaim gur focal Muimhneach é ach níl mé lán-chinnte.

quote:

Amainiris.

Sin ceann nua domsa! Tá mé faoi chomaoin agat, Abigail. Dar le FGB, is féidir "amanathar" a úsáid leis an gciall sin freisin:

amanathar, The day after tomorrow; the second day after.

Tá "amanathar" feicthe agam leis an gciall "arú amárach", ach níor úsáid mé riamh é.

Virgin = Ógh

quote:

Virgin = Ógh

Is fíor duit. Seo agaibh cúpla sliocht as stair an fhocail seo:

From DIL (Old & Middle Irish): whole, entire, integral; untouched, intact, inviolate; complete, unsullied, pure; celibate, chaste; a virgin. (The latter meanings develop from the Middle Irish period onward, esp. in religious literature.)

From Sanas Cormaic, ca. 900, an chéad fhoclóir i nGaeilge. Tabhair faoi deara gur "complete" an chiall atá leis sa chéad iontráil, agus "virgin" an chiall sa dara hiontráil:

65. Airchinneach .i. archendach, arcos [arcos] graece, excelsus latine. Airchinnech er-cend-óg, úasal-cend-comlán.

= Airchinneach [hereditary steward of church lands] i.e. archendach, 'arcos' in Greek, 'excelsus' in Latin. Airchinnech er-cend-óg[h], noble-head-complete.

178. Bét a betula (.i. virgo sine custodia interpretatur) .i. óg scélach amnárech, et inde dicitur duine bétach.

= Bét [misdeed] from 'betula' (i.e. interpreted to mean a virgin without a ward) i.e. a gossiping shameless virgin, and it is from that we say 'a wanton/violent/shameless person'.

Note that "ógh" was used in Betha Colaim Chille, composed by Maghnas Ó Domhnaill in 1532, to refer to a male virgin:

Do coimeit se 'n-a oigh ro-naemtha ro-bendaigthe ro-gloin o do ruc a mhathair é cus an ponc sin a bais gan truailledh a ógachda leth rit-sa na re mnai eli.

And he kept himself a virgin passing holy, passing blessed, and passing clean, from the time his mother gave him birth to his death, without violating his virginity with thee or any other woman.

But finally, the only place I encounter "ógh" these days is in the curfá of the amhrán Bánchnoic Éireann Ógh [Óighe] !

Is "ócht" for "virginity" derived from the word "ógh" for "virgin" mentioned above?

aodhan

Yep. ógh /o:/ > óghacht /o:xt/ > ócht /o:xt/

(Message edited by dennis on February 07, 2007)

Tá "A Mhuire Ógh" sách fairsing chomh maith.

Dúirt Donnacha: "OI "ander" or "ainder", modern "ainnir", all have a core meaning of "young woman". OI sources conflict on whether or not the word denotes a virgin or a married woman. Welsh "anner" and Breton "annoar", on the other hand, both mean "heifer".

Apparently, 'andre' is in Basque 'woman'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitanian_language

I'm trying to write a book and the name of my main character I would like to be Irish meaning friend of fairies. A female name, thanks

since the fairies in Irish folklore were more feared than befriended, I'm not sure there is one.

Fairy is "Sí", Friend is "Cara", you could make up a compound name;

A Amy, a chara

In case you interested in forming the compound name based on Aonghus' info above here's my try at the compound name for "friend of fairies:"

Cara Síthe where síthe is the form for "of the faires" (genitive plural).

Although cara is listed in the dictionary as a masculine word, I'm pretty certain it can be used for both females and males (as in my greeting above (A Amy, a chara), but please wait for confirmation or corrections, since I'm a learner.

quote:

Pares cum paribus facillime congregantur

Tá cairde ag na sí agus tá siad ann fós, nach ea?

(Message edited by mac_léinn on February 08, 2007)

(Message edited by mac_léinn on February 08, 2007)

Tá an t'ainm Síofra ann

http://www.namenerds.com/irish/modern.html

síofra [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
sióg bheag; iarlais; páiste seanchríonna; duine lag dearóil.


Síofra has become quite a common girls name, (although I can't think why anyone would like to name their child "elf" or "changeling", not to mention precocious - I know at least one child called Síofra)

Out of curiousity for a friend who likes such things, are there any mythical creatures (fairies and the like) in Irish folklore that people got along well with or liked? I don't know much about these things but this question of Amy's set me to thinking on it and I know my friend would be interested to know because she likes legends and fairy-esque stories.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Riona,

One such mythical creature, Riona, was Dagda, the Good God. He was the father and chief of the People of Dana, the Tuatha De Danann. He did good things for them It was good to be the Dagda. And for the Tuatha De Danann. Not so good for the Fomorians. Well, I guess "getting along with" depends too on which group in mythology one favors.

Le meas,

Maidhc

Thats not exactly what I meant but GRMA anyways. I mean some sort of fairyesque creature, one that there is more than one of and that people consider to be positive or adventageous or friendly or benificial to know.

Beir bua agus beannacht

There is no equivalent that I know of to the brownie tradition in Irish folklore.

Sometimes the fairies are helpful, but most stories I am aware of indicate they are to be feared and avoided rather than loved.