Today I was listening to a live segment of Midwest Irish Internet Radio:

http://www.midwestirishradio.com/mwir/index.htm

Anyway, during one of the music breaks there were two ladies speaking in Irish, and while I couldn't understand most of what they were saying I could catch an odd word here and there.

But something that I noticed about one of the ladies was that it sounded like she rolled her "r's" when she spoke. I wouldn't say it was as strong as an Italian rolling their "r's" but it was definitely being done. Maybe a "flipped r " would be closer?

I know Welsh does this, and I have heard some Scottish people might do this also...but does Irish do this?

Maybe it is a dialect thing? Or maybe this is just how she does it, but it was rather strong and I think the other lady might have even said something about it because she spoke a few words with "r's" in a row and really rolled them and they both laughed about it.

I saw in some of the other theads that the "r" is something people like to discuss here, but I am not a linguist and I can't really follow the rather linguistic posts.

I noticed that she tended to do it at the start of her words and at the end of her words, I didn't hear her doing it in the middle of her words. I heard words like "saorr = saor" "rrothar = rothar" "mórr = mór" used a couple of times.

Or do I just need to have my ears checked?

I recall reading somewhere that the r is rolled somewhat. I remember thinking that that had done me in with Spanish and I hoped that it would not be the case with my Irish. I'm certain someone with more knowledge will post here but I will look through my material to see where I saw that the r can be rolled in Irish.

Do chinniúint, the trilled or one tap alveolar r IS the normal broad r of Irish. Those who don't pronounce them like that are just learners who don't manage (or try) to pronounce the r's as native speakers do... However, in some places (especially Kerry), younger native speakers of Irish only have the English r instead of the old alveolar r's. But remember that almost all native speakers have alveolar r's, so as in Spanish or in Italian. If you hear English r's in Irish everywhere on the web, it's just because most people who deal with Irish on the web are just learners or at least, non-native speakers who haven't got the genuine pronunciation of irish.

And to my ears, alveolar (Spanish-like) r's are much more melodious than the English ones :-)

(Message edited by lughaidh on February 04, 2007)

In all honesty...I thought the way she spoke was very nice to listen to also. I have always enjoyed the sound of the trilled "r" or should I call it "alveolar...?" :0)

I took a few years of Spanish in my high school (secondary school) and I was one of the few students who didn't have any trouble with the Spanish "r."

Lughaidh, you say that this is for the "normal broad r of Irish," is this only for broad "r"? I will assume that the slender "r" is the topic of debate in those other posts?

So I guess my next question is to what extent should one roll their broad "r"? Should I try to give it a short flip so to speak, or should I give it a fair rolling like in Spanish? Along with Irish radio shows, I like to listen to Welsh radio shows also, and I have to admit that I love it when they say their "r" because it is a real strong sound. Would this be correct to do in Irish?

Agus A Lughaidh, I tried to listen to the sounds at http://www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm but nothing came up on my computer. Do I need to do something else before I can listen to your recordings? Go raibh maith agat.

The Welsh one is voiceless and trilled.

From the data at my disposal, there was once a distinction between trilled and tap alveolar broad r. They tend to have a 'fanned' tongue blade.

Slender seems to tend towards been more 'pointed' with the tongue less fanned, or so it seems to me.


General rubric: (historic)

Trilled r:

-initial position (less likely in middle and end, apparently)
-when (single & double) coronals (except s) meet single r (l, n, r, t, d, th, dh). The rule that when two slender coronals come together, the first one broad would seem to not prohibit the above. S broad used to be dental and heavily velarised, but I dont know if it would be enought to not destabailse to an alveolar form. There is a Middle Irish word 'turrscar' ('refuse'), so it is possible there too.
-before long/stress vowels
-where natives need two words to be seperate by just long and short r (examples thin on the ground)
-where it has been generalised from another word
- in an old compound
- at end of monosyllables after short vowel (this rules makes a bit more complex, as this increases the potential at end of words)

Tapped r:
- lenition of r
- after long/stress vowel
-where second consonant in initial cluster (gr, cr)


(Not sure about tr and dr in history, to trill or tap)

Even more exotic, Wagner in Teillinn reports gemminates (long consonants like in Italian) coming together like two trills together. Must have taken a long time to say stuff...if he was correct at all. Would not suit modern Donegal natives today, that's for sure.
I have heard two people from Conemara with it as their normal r (one in his 20s, a lad, and a lady 60+)