I've finished the Pimsleur tapes, and I think I can say "Ta Gaieliann agat." (Though I'm confident that I can't spell in Irish worht a lick.) There is a slight problem though, though the tapes are exceptionally good at breaking down each syllable, thereby aiding the listener in correct pronunciation, there are still a few words that I don't think I am pronouncing correctly, and would like some assistance.

Níos déanaí - I hear "Nees - Dee- Ah - Nay" from the woman, but I hear "Nees - Dee - Ahn- Nlee" sometimes from the man. Which is it?

Cén áit - I hear "Key-En-Noitch" or "Noit-cha" and "key-en-not" Which is it?

Ceart go leor - I hear "Cat-go-lore", "Cat-go-leur," "Cack-go-lore," "Key-ack-go-lore," and "Key-ark-go-lore" Which is it?

an caife and sa chaife. - though the tape says that these are pronounced differently, I am having a difficult time discerning the difference, or perhaps I really am having a difficult time PRONOUNCING the difference. The first is rather straight forward, sounding similar to "cafe" in English, but not quite. The second, I believe has some sort of guttaral "h" sound at the beginning, but I am having difficulty reproducing it. I only determined that this must be the difference after I heard the word for "to buy," "a cheannach"

Sa chaife liteartha -- despite my previous explanation of how I think "chaife" is pronounced, I hear the following:
"Suh-cafe-littererer," "Suh-cafe-litterer-ruh" which is it?

lón - I hear "lome" and "loan," both with either a long "m" or "n" sound, meaning sort of like "lome-mah" and "loan-nah" which is it?

dhá - I hear "Gah" is that right?

a dhéanamh - I hear "Ah-Yeah-Nov" "yeah" as in how an American would say "yeah." I'm afraid to say I don't know if that word is used in Irish English, if not, then I hear, "Ah-Yee-A-Nov," where the "A" between "yee" and "nov" sounds like the "a" in "cat," "back" or "Ceart go leor," as long as there is no "r" sound in "Ceart"

a cheannach - I hear "Ah-Hin-nah-hin-nah" and "ah-hyin-nah-hin-nah," and "ah-hyih-nah-ah-nah" which is it?

Go raibh maith agat.

Few more:

beagán - I hear "Bee-ah-gone," and "Bee-ah-gaum," "Bee-uh-gone," and "Bee-uh-gaum,"where "gaum" sounds like "gone," but with an "m" sound.

Táim go maith - I hear, "Time-go-mah."

that's it, I think.

Aontaím leat! My experience has been that some fluent speakers will say to us exactly the way things should sound and other fluent speakers will say that it is close enough within a range of possiblities. My thinking is that I will never speak like a native speaker nor with an Irish accent but with my American New England suburban slangish slur. Have you studied IPA (international phonetic alphabet) yet? Some here will respond that is a better approach than trying to sound out in our own methods. (For example, vitamin in American English and British English sound differently even though we might try to phonetically phrase it in our own way). Good for you getting through Pimsleur. I give it a go through and through every so often.

"Ta Gaieliann agat."

That is "Tá Gaelainn agat" and it means "you speak Irish". I guess you meant "Tá Gaelainn agam" ;-)

Níos déanaí

nyees d-yay-nee (or dee-ah-nee in Munster)


Cén áit

k-yay nawt in Munster and Connemara, k-yay naytch in Ulster.

Ceart go leor

kyart guh lyawr

an caife and sa chaife.

uh kah-fih, suh KHah-fih.

"a cheannach"

uh hyah-naKH (hy = German ch in "ich")

Sa chaife liteartha

suh KHah-fih litt-yurr-huh.


lón - I hear "lome"

the speakers must be very bad... what is pronounced like "lome" means "naked" in Irish! Lón is pronounced almost like "loan".

dhá - I hear "Gah" is that right?

no, the dh sound is kind of a g sound BUT you let the air going out of your mouth instead of stopping it a second as for g. and á is "aw" in Munster and Connaught, "ay" in Ulster.

a dhéanamh - I hear "Ah-Yeah-Nov" "yeah"

uh yee-nuv in Munster, uh yay-nuh in Connaught, uh yah-noo in Ulster.

"Ceart go leor," as long as there is no "r" sound in "Ceart"

There is, just the speaker seems not to be native, and on top of that it seems to be quite bad. Maybe it would be better for you to sell your Pimsleur and to buy Learning Irish instead ;-)

Cinnte, Finbarr! As Lughaidh says, Learning Irish is well worth the investment and time in using. Agus, a Lughaidh, could you please delineate the forms of Gaeilge, Gaelainn ... to refresh my use of these various terms? Also, I have started to use i nGaeilge rather than as Gaeilge more based on your advice. Although, my dialect will be a mixture of all the dialects! Go raibh maith agat.

Lughaidh, thanks! Right. I meant "Tá Gaelainn agam," or, more appropriately, Tá beagán Gaelainn agam."

I don't understand the "KH" sound for Sa chaife liteartha.
How does the "h" change the sound from just a "k" sound?

in defense of the speakers, sometimes I do hear "loan" and sometimes "lome" My ear might be off. Of course, I do remember reading a review by someone on amazon.com saying that after you finish, and you pick up another Irish book, you'll have to relearn everything.

Michael, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to be fluent, or at least I understand that there are too many hurdles to get to that. But if I can get it right, I want to, you know?

Absolutely. It is something we learners struggle with everyday. By the way, I go by Mike (Maidhc i nGaeilge). It is a long story. If you google, er, search my name here in the previous postings, you will see what I mean. Oh, and even if you think you do not want to be fluent, you will want to be more fluent than you are. It is a bug that gets within and will not let go once unleashed. I try to take things one step at a time. One knows when one is ready for the next level. Buíochas le Día. Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat!

Go raigh maigh agat, Maidhc. I'm thinking of doing Gaeltalk and trying out my new, limited, vocabulary. maybe then I'll pick up Learning Irish. I'm torn though by the dialects. part of me says I should pick up the Munster TYI, but there's not much support for that, so perhaps the Learning Irish or the new TYI. Of course, i figure that even with a mix of all three dialects, if I were to go to a Gaeltacht, I'm sure I'd be understood. Baby steps.

Sea, Gaeltalk is said to be a wonderful experience. I learned Munster first and am still learning it. My mishmash is mostly Munster. Most of my teachers and fellow learners are Munsterites (do not know if that is a word, just made it up). Come to a Daltaí immersion activity and you will find advocates for all the dialects. In the beginning, it is best to learn the one you like and get to know the others. Eventually, you may even wind up like a lot of us and have vast libraries in print, digital, and audiovisual in all of the dialects. Go raibh míle maith agat freisin.

Scríobh Finbarr: part of me says I should pick up the Munster TYI, but there's not much support for that

A Fhin, a chara (I hope I lenited your name correctly), in case you haven't seen this site, check out the Munster-Dialect based, Yahoo Group on Teach Yourself Irish at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TYIMunster/

The folks there do an excellent job of supporting the Munster dialect and they use the original Teach Yourself Irish (Munster-dialect based) book.

Mac_léin,

I will check it out. Is "Scríobh" a salutation, like, "Dear?"

And I'm not sure what you mean by "lenited," but no worries on the name. The name is just one I thought was neat while reading an Edward Rutherfurd novel.

could you please delineate the forms of Gaeilge, Gaelainn ...

Ok:
Gaeilge : Connemara. pronounced gayl-g-ih.
Gaeigle: Connemara, pronounced gay-glih
Gaelainn: Munster, pronounced Gay-linn in Kerry and Gay-ling in West Cork and Waterford.
Gaeilg: Ulster, pronounceed gay-lik.

to refresh my use of these various terms? Also, I have started to use i nGaeilge rather than as Gaeilge more based on your advice.

Thanks :-)

I meant "Tá Gaelainn agam," or, more appropriately, Tá beagán Gaelainn agam."

Then it would be beagán Gaelainne (gay-lih-nih): genitive case after beagán.


I don't understand the "KH" sound for Sa chaife liteartha.

sorry, with that KH i meant the guttural Spanish jota or the guttural German ch, etc. Do you see what sound it is?

a review by someone on amazon.com saying that after you finish, and you pick up another Irish book, you'll have to relearn everything.

ha ha ha :-D

"Then it would be beagán Gaelainne (gay-lih-nih): genitive case after beagán."
Well, I can't spell it. not yet any way.

"sorry, with that KH i meant the guttural Spanish jota or the guttural German ch, etc. Do you see what sound it is?"

Yes, jota, I get. Thanks.

Do scríobh Finbarr:

I don't understand the "KH" sound for Sa chaife liteartha.
How does the "h" change the sound from just a "k" sound?


A broad "ch" is a somewhat gutteral sounding "k", a bit like the "ch" in "loch". Some people use "kh" in phonetics to represent that sound.

Do scríobh Finbarr:

Is "Scríobh" a salutation, like, "Dear?"

Scríobh (do scríobh) = "wrote"

We use it when quoting someone.

Do scríobh Cionaodh: 'A broad "ch" is a somewhat gutteral sounding "k", a bit like the "ch" in "loch". Some people use "kh" in phonetics to represent that sound.'

Now I'm a bit confused. I pronounce the "ch" in "loch" like a "ck" in English. When I was younger I seem to remember the "ch" having a _slightly_ different sound, but now, I just think "ck." In any event, that's nothing like jota, or the "j" sound, in Spanish, which sounds like an English "h" sound, as in "Harry," or "hot," or "hell."

If it's like the jota sound, I'd pronounce it like, "suh-ka-haf-ay" where the "ka" and the "haf" sorta blend together.

Finbarr, if you want to hear the sounds we're trying to describe, go to the website i put the address below in my signature and I think it will be clearer :)

Ahh, I will! Go raigh maigh agat Lughaidh.

A Fhinbairr (?) a chara,

Lenition is when you stick an h after the first letter of a word and sometimes when you lenite you must soften the end consinant by making it slender. When you address someone in the vocative you must do these things depending on whether the first letter of their name can have an h after it and depending on whether the last consinent must be softened.

Someone explain it better and fix any mistakes I made le bhur dtoil

Beir bua agus beannacht

Now I'm a bit confused. I pronounce the "ch" in "loch" like a "ck" in English.

While understandable (by inference, because it'll usually be followed by a well-known lake name), that "ck" would be a mispronunciation.

Ah, thanks...learn something new everyday.

A Finbarr,

I'm sorry about the delay in getting back to you, but looks like your questions have been answered by Cionadh and Ríona. And it also looks like you've begun your "indoctrination" in the Munster dialect. That is, the phrase scríobh Finbarr, applies to the Connaught and Ulster dialects (and the Official Irish Standard), where as the phrase do scríobh applies to the Munster dialect.

Freagra maith a Ríona! (good answer Ríona!). If I could just add the following: I think the the slenderizing of the final consonant of someone's name when addressing them (the vocative) this applies to male names only.

Do scríobh Finbarr: The name is just one I thought was neat while reading an Edward Rutherfurd novel. I see from you profile Finbarr, that you've listed your name as Fin Barr. So, is Fin an actual Irish first name? If so, it would be subject to lenition in the vocative. That is, when addressing you, we would say a Fhin, but if it's not an Irish name, then usually we don't lenite the name (example: Dennis in the vocative would remain as a Dennis.

So, I wonder what's the vocative for Shawneen, since it can be either male or female?

Well, the last consonant is already slender, so no change there even if it's masculine. The initial consonant already has an 'h' after it, so no change there. And it's not an Irish name so I wouldn't change it anyway.

Seáinín -> a Sheáinín
but
Shawneen -> a Shawneen

Maidir le "Fin(n)," ar chuala tú na seanscéaltaí faoi Fhionn Mac Cumhaill agus a bhuíon laochra, na Fianna?

Tá cúpla focal sa teanga inniu a thagann ó Fhionn agus na Fianna:
"fiannaíocht": ag déanamh bréagscéalta
"cothrom na Féinne": fair play (nó "féar plé" i nGaeilge!)
Agus ainm páirtí polaitiúil freisin: "Fianna Fáil."

A Abigail, go raibh céad míle (120,000) maith agat as do fhreagra. Ceist reitriciúil ba é ceist. (I'm trying to say "the question was a rhetorical one," and fronting the rhetorical part at the same time. We've had lively discussions on the name Shawneen in the past, and my question was a nostalgic nod to those discussions.

So Fin(n) may come from Fionn? That's interesting to see Irish names change spellings over the years - kind of reminds me of how Americans change the spelling of names - conas deirtear "Variety is the spice of life." That is, is there an idiom of such nature in Irish?

These are all ways you could say it:
Ceist reitriciúil a bhí ann.
Ceist reitriciúil ab ea í. (ceist is feminine, so you use í)
Ceist reitriciúil ab í an cheist sin.
Ba reitriciúil an cheist í.

Ach tá ceist (neamhreitriciúil!) agam faoin ngramadach anseo. I'd never really thought about it, but "ba" changes to "ab" before a vowel in the above examples. It doesn't always though - for instance, I'd say "b'álainn an bhean í" or "ba í an mhúinteoir í."

So why does it change, and when does it? Is it only the relative forms? (That's my best guess at this point...)

Go raibh maith agat, a Abigail. I appreciate you going to the extent of listing a number of forms, including one using the verb bí. Since I wanted to practice a little with the copula when I wrote the response, I was trying to avoid using "ceist" twice in the sentence, so I think I like your second and fourth answers the most.

A Mhac a chara,

GRMA for telling me that only male names get slenderized at the end, I didn't know that. And I always lenite Dennis's name and he hasn't killed me yet so I assume that though it isn't required to do it I'm allowed to if I like. He'll no doubt be coming and correcting me if this isn't the case :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

Is dóigh liom gurbh fhéidir leat rud ar bith is mian leat a dhéanamh ar ainm Dennis agus níor mhiste leis é, fad is a dhéanann tú i nGaeilge é!

I think Dennis would let you do anything you want to his name if only you do it in Irish!

quote:

Is dóigh liom gurbh fhéidir leat rud ar bith is mian leat a dhéanamh ar ainm Dennis agus níor mhiste leis é, fad is a dhéanann tú i nGaeilge é!

Leag tú do mhéar air!

The KH sound referred to above is a throaty H sound,
think Chanakuh, where the Ch is pronounced like you've something in the back of your throat only more subtle than that.

Do scríobh Mac_léinn: "I see from you profile Finbarr, that you've listed your name as Fin Barr. So, is Fin an actual Irish first name?"

I believe I did that in an effort to relieve myself of the work of registering. :) There must have been two fields for name, one for first and one for last, and I decided not to conjure up something more, and just keep it simple. Two syllables in the username, two spaces...problem solved. :) But I imagine "Fin" would be a nick name for "Finbarr," which I am pretty sure is an authentic Irish name. I was just trying to keep with the spirit of the website.

All this grammar is making my head hurt. Judging from some of the reviews of "Learning Irish" on amazon.com, and the pain in my head from this brief discussion of grammar, perhaps gaeltalk is a better next step. (But that was just a frolic and detour.)

Keep that bottle of aspirin out, Finbarr. The headaches will keep coming, for besides grammar, there's the dialects, the language is dying, the language is thriving, experts disagreeing among themselves, pedantic corrections, one step forward, two steps back, pronunciation, compulsory learning ensures language survival, compulsory learning is killing the language, this list goes on and on, spinning round and round ... it's enough to make you switch languages but you can't because Irish gets under your skin and will not let go nagging at you until you get through the headache to the glory land of líofahood.




Good luck with Gaeltalk.


Le meas, Maidhc

Scríobh Finbarr: All this grammar is making my head hurt

Conas deirtear as Gaeilge no pain, no gain?