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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2007 (January-February) » Archive through February 07, 2007 » Riona's Project « Previous Next »

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was going to add this to the “Status of Riona’s Project” thread but for some reason I wasn’t being allowed so I will try this.

Riona, I was reading in your past posts that you are looking for Irish only speakers or near Irish only speakers in Ireland, and I was curious if you have looked outside of Ireland as well?

The reason I ask is that after getting very interested in the Canadian Gaeltacht area, I started doing some Google searches for the history of Canada and her Celtic migrations. And as with any Google search the first thing that pops up is some Wikipedia article. Which every college professor I have warns me to be skeptical of because Wikipedia is known for inaccurate information, however, what caught my attention is in the Newfoundland Irish article where there are claims that in the 2001 Canadian Census, 10 people claim to speak Gaelic only. The problem is that Canada doesn’t specify Scottish Gaelic or Irish Gaelic. They classify it as Gaelic languages, Welsh, Gaelic Languages n.i.e. I am not quite sure if that includes all Celtic languages besides Scottish Gaelic and Welsh, if Irish is included in the Gaelic languages section. Since it was in an article about the Irish language in Canada, maybe it means Irish speakers.

If you are interested here is the how to find the information…I won’t lie it was a pain to find at first, but it is there.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/home/index.cfm

Click on “Data” in the left column.
Click on “Topic Based Tabulations.”
Click on “Language Composition of Canada.”
Click on “ 4 Detailed Languages Spoken At home (97F0007XCB2001004)

I am not who I think I am, I am not who you think I am, I am who I think you think I am.

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 78
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Which every college professor I have warns me to be skeptical of because Wikipedia is known for inaccurate information



Some time ago we had quite a lively discussion on the inaccuracies found in both Wikipedia and, believe it or not, Encylopedia Britannica. It might be a good idea for those same college professors to warn their students about inaccuracies in all encylopedias, peer-reviewed or not.

Here's an excerpt and link from the peer-reviewed Nature magazine about encylopedia inaccuracies:


quote:

A recent comparison of scientific entries in Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica, the journal Nature reported that there were few differences in accuracy. Read a BBC article about the research study at http://rbi.ims.ca/4922-530


Fáilte roimh ceartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Pádraig_toronto
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Username: Pádraig_toronto

Post Number: 49
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 01:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The area of Newfoundland that they are speaking of is the Avalon Peninsula and it was heavily settled by families from Waterford and East Cork ( which is reflected in the surnames ) so the language would have been Irish rather than Scottish Gaelic.

The dialect of English spoken in Newfoundland is so heavily influenced by both Irish, Hiberno-English and 17th century English that there is a very good dictionary created which is similar to one done in Ireland.

http://www.heritage.nf.ca/dictionary/

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_nov2003/Newfie_English.htm

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 03:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, in fairness to Wikipedia, it is a nice idea to have an open ended database of knowledge. The problem is that unfortunately anyone can edit or add information, so there will always be that potential for bad information.

But it is nice to have around, and it has to be said that there is also good information to be found there. Also, one can always use it as a starting point for researching.

For instance, I would not have known there were Canadians claiming to speak only a "Gaelic" language. Again, I can only assume they are talking about Irish. They don't actually say Irish.

I was just curious if Riona's research had led her to Canada and abroad.

I am not who I think I am, I am not who you think I am, I am who I think you think I am.

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 83
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 04:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Do_chinniúint: Also, one can always use it as a starting point for researching.

Pointe maith! Is mac léinn ollscoile é mo mhac agus úsáideann é agus a cairde Wikipedia chomh sin.

Fáilte roimh ceartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Pádraig_toronto
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Username: Pádraig_toronto

Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 04:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It depends on what part of Canada.

Newfoundland... is would be Irish.
Nova Scotia...Scottish Gaelic.
New Brunswick...depending on the area it could be either (although there are no native speakers) same for PEI.

In Ontario... again depending on area it could be either language, pockets close to Toronto would have a high % of Scottish Gaelic, but saying that the Peterborough area 2 hours north-west had an extensive settlement of Irish from a planned settlement in 1825.

Unfotunately in all cases the shift to English was rapid, although I am told that there were 3rd generation monolingual Scottish Gaelic speakers about an hour away from Toronto up until the 1920's.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2478
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 04:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

chomh sin

Ahem.

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 04:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ahem........ cosúil leis sin?

Fáilte roimh ceartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4892
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 05:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is mac léinn ollscoile é mo mhac agus úsáideann sé agus a cairde Wikipedia chomh mar sin.


chuige sin for that purpose
mar sin like that/in that manner
lena n-aghaidh sin for that purpose


whereas

chomh X sin as X as that


(Message edited by aonghus on January 30, 2007)

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 86
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 05:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tuigim anois. Go raibh maith agat a Dennis agus a Aonghuis.

And as long as we're discussing inaccurate information in reference material, here's one from De Bhaldraithe's English-Irish Dictionary, which I just purchased a few days ago:

quote:

A thousand thanks! Go raibh céad maith agat!



Ahem, ahem, deirim. Shíl mé gur é míle "thousand."

Mac Léinnn Uimhreacha

Fáilte roimh ceartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 184
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 05:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Go raibh céad maith agat"
"May you have a good century"
"May you have a good 1/8 of an acre"
"May you have 100 goodnesses"
"May you have 120 goodnesses"
etc.

De Bhaldraithe was translating an idiom by an idiom - a task that often requires a bit of number-stretching.

Of course "go raibh míle maith agat" exists too. But it's so much more common in speech than "céad" that I wouldn't think it fits the same literary register. In spite of numerical equivalence, I'd have to put "míle" closer to "Thank you very much" than to "A thousand thanks."

Abigail

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 87
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 06:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is innealtóir mé ach is matamaiticeoir í Abigail agus géillim dí. I wonder what "Céad míle fáilte romhat" means, especially if we employ number-stretching theory - "thank you very much one hundred and twenty times?

Fáilte roimh ceartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 185
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 06:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"A hundred welcomed miles before you" - what else?!

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 89
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 06:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Freagra maith! Ach, feicim anois sa Ó Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Bearla:

quote:

Go raibh míle maith acu as a gcabhair, a thousand thanks for their help.



So, now I'm wondering if number-stretching theory is a dialectical issue. And if so, which dialects are number-stretching-theory based?

(Message edited by mac_léinn on January 30, 2007)

Fáilte roimh ceartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 920
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 07:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA for the idea and eolas about Canada. I'm going to check that out here in a bit to see it for myself. That would make my total number of people up to 43 altogether. The only person on my list to date that didn't live in Ireland is a woman mentioned on IrishGaelictranslator.com in 2004 by a grandson who said she was forgetting her English with age and he wanted to learn Irish so he could talk to her. The boy lived in New York and though the message didn't specify where the grandmother lived I suspected that she lived in the states since he saw her now and again.

Go raibh maith agatsa a chara.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4893
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 06:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

céad [aidiacht]
roimh gach rud eile in áit, in am nó i gcéim (an chéad duine sa rang, an chéad uair eile).

céad [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
an uimhir 100 nó cúig fichid; aois (an fichiú céad); 120 (céad éisc, ubh agus araile); an t-ochtú cuid d'acra (céad talún); 112 pt.

míle [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
an uimhir 1000, deich gcéad (go raibh míle maith agat); iomlán (déan do mhíle dícheall); tomhas faid 1760 slat nó 1609 méadar; cuid mhaith.


Tá céad leagan de nath, agus míle leagan d'amhrán!

(Innealtóir eile mise, dar ndóigh)

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 90
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 08:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis,

Go raibh bilún maith agat. (May 1,200,000 welcomes be before you.)

Ní thuigim "Tá céad leagan de nath, agus míle leagan d'amhrán!"

leagan = act of knocking down.

nath = poem

There are a 120 ways of knocking down a poem and very many ways of knocking down a song?

That's the best I can do.

(Message edited by mac_léinn on January 31, 2007)

Fáilte roimh ceartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4895
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 09:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

leagan [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
an bonn a bhaint ó rud (duine, crann, a leagan); caitheamh, iomrascáil; ísliú (seol a leagan); cur síos, cur in áit (cloch bhoinn a leagan; leag do lámh air); gearradh (leagadh cáin throm air); cur (leag ansin í, go leaga Dia an t-ádh ort); claonadh, lé (leagan a bheith agat le rud, leagan ó dheas).

leagan amach (cóiriú, socrú (scéim a leagan amach); cloí (leag sé amach lena dhorn é); ordú (obair a leagan amach do dhuine)).
leagtha suas (breoite; ag iompar clainne).




Leagan, a version

There is a proverb:

http://www.daltai.com/proverbs/weeks/week122.htm

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 91
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 09:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh céad maith agat a Aonghuis. Is breá liom "Secret of Roan Inish" ach ní aithne agam faoi Éamonn Kelly, "The Mermaid," Ireland's Master Storyteller. Caithfidh mé a léamh é.

Fáilte roimh ceartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4897
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 11:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maighdean_mhara

quote:

De réir an bhéaloidis, déantar bean iomlán de mhurúch má ghoidtear a cochall draíochta. Is iomaí maighdean mhara a pósadh ar fhear cladaigh tar éis don fhear an cochall a ghoid ar an maighdean mhara.


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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 68
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 11:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

didn't the Irish spoken in Canada
get its own name?
somthing about fish hmm..
will look into that
gotta go to work

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Suaimhneas
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Username: Suaimhneas

Post Number: 212
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 11:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis

Cochall? hood? pod? cad tá i gceist

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 186
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 12:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

clóca, brat, srl.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2485
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 12:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is féidir chochaill a cheannach ón Spailpín Fánach:

http://www.spailpin.com/Gaeilge/geansaithecochaillagusflosanna.htm?UID=11362355

Is maith liom "Fill ar do Dhúchas". :-)

"An seanchas gearr,
an seanchas is fearr."


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Pádraig_toronto
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Username: Pádraig_toronto

Post Number: 51
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 01:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"didn't the Irish spoken in Canada
get its own name?
somthing about fish hmm..
will look into that
gotta go to work"


Dan...You are thinking of the province of Newfoundland.

Newfoundland is the only place outside Europe with its own distinctive name in the Irish language, Talamh an Éisc, literally "Land of the Fish

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 01:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Newfoundland is the only place outside Europe with its own distinctive name in the Irish language,


Céard faoi Ifreann?

Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin, go raibh céad maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Pádraig_toronto
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Username: Pádraig_toronto

Post Number: 52
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 01:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

hmmm... are we sure that it is outside Europe ?

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Mac_léinn
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Username: Mac_léinn

Post Number: 99
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 01:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Shíl mé go bhfuil Ifreann ag m'áit oibre.

Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin, go raibh céad maith agaibh.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 69
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 04:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

got the fish thing right. lol
thanks for the info GRMA

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 925
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 06:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The trouble with including these census results in my list is that they don't specify the ages of these speakers. I don't include small children in my findings because they'll learn English at school soon enough. So if these speakers are little then they won't count in my data. To bad the census doesn't give ages for categorical things like this.

Is there an Irish only category in the Irish census anymore? There probably isn't and even if there was noone would want to mark it, even if they did have limited English.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4901
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 06:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Too bad the census doesn't give ages for categorical things like this.



It does, look at the data.


quote:

Is there an Irish only category in the Irish census anymore?



No.

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 927
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 11:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis a chara,

I double checked the Newfoundland census data and I didn't see ages for those people. Did you see them somewhare else on the website?

Even without ages, that is very interesting and I appreciate being directed to it.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4909
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 02:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

sorry, I thought you meant the Irish census.



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