A Chairde,
I have been using IOYO for a while now and it is fairly obvious that Deirbhile has a different pronunciation from most of the other speakers, especially Rónán. From what I know about Ulster Irish it seems like everyone is using the "Gweedore" pronunciation and it very apparent in their á's.
Words such as "lá", "breá", "slán" are said with the "flat a" [IPA ae] by all the others.
Deirbhile's pronunciation (south Donegal?) seems more in line with Connacht/Munster. I am wondering how representative her speech is and should learners follow her example?
Furthermore I get the impression that this "a" business is the reason so many non-Ulster Gaeilgeoirí find Ulster dialect to be unattractive.
I am unfamiliar with Tús Maith and their Ulster pronunciation.

I have never seen this series, but I was told by someone knowledgeable that one of the speakers there is a non-native. I hope this helps.

The lack of a long 'á' sound in Ulster Irish was part of the reason I moved on to the other dialects. Now you're talking was my intoduction to Irish and no doubt the odd aspect of it has stuck..
I just can't say 'tá' as 'tay', it goes against everything I read about Irish prononciation.There's a prominant 'ooh/ú' sound in Ulster Irish to my ears. Partly because they pronounce both 'eadh' in conditional verbs and 'amh' endings in verbal nouns as 'ooh/ú'.

Even though I prefer the sound of the south, the drive to promote Irish in the north is admirable and I find their approach to the language refreshing.

You may be referring to an earlier version of Tus Maith by Risteard Mac Gabhann which had one non-native speaker.

The thing about Ulster Irish that is less appealing to me is the way many speakers I've heard pronounce their slender Ds and Ts. I prefer the more southerly pronunciations of these letters but it is just personal preference and nothing more.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I have the Irish On Your Own/Now You're Talking program and I was actually really impressed by it.

I really don't have much experience with the dialect differences, so I cannot pass judgement on the Ulster dialects...but what really impressed me was the range of everday speech covered and the amount of content that was on the audio recordings. Minus the fact they were cassette tapes :(

However, I didn't like the fact that it didn't really go into any depth with grammar, which I believe was done on purpose. I got locked into the same problem I have with most phrase books...while I was learning the phrases, I didn't have the ability to say or understand anything else because it didn't really give a huge amount of vocabulary and grammar to work with outside of what was given in the book.

I am now working with Learning Irish, and I think I am getting more out of it than I did with Irish On Your Own. I wish there was a way to combine the two courses. Maybe take the Learning Irish approach, but include the everyday phrases and conversations that Irish On Your Own had...and back it up with the amount of audio coverage that Irish On Your Own had.

Sorry,

I forgot to add this with my other post. I read somewhere, I think it was Wikipedia, which I try to avoid using as a source of accurate information by itself...that while Ulster Irish tends to be the "underdog" of Irish dialects, it has the largest numbers of speakers.

Is this true?

How can the majority of Irish speakers be considered the "underdog" of Irish?

"Tá blas gan ceart ag an Muimhneach,
Tá ceart gan bhlas ag an Ultach,
Tá ceart agus blas ag an gConnachtach."

I have heard that speakers of other dialects turn the volume down when they hear the Ulster dialect on the radio. The revival used Munster at first, then switched to Connacht (as in Buntus).

Connachtach a scríobh an méid sin, gan amhras!

Ach seachas sin, is fíor dhuit. Cé go mbeadh sé níos cruinne a rá

"Influential revivalists were for Munster first, later influential people turned towards connacht."

I suspect Ulster Irish, due to the sheer raw energy of learners in the 6 counties, is probably in for an increase in influence.

As I said earlier I don't have much to go on.

I only have the Irish On Your Own/Now You're Talking course and Learning Irish. Granted I might not have enough time in with the language yet, but they both sound Irish to me ;)

However, I have to admit, there is something very nice about the ladies voices on the Learning Irish audio, maybe this could have something to do with the fact that they are speaking scripted material and not speaking off the top of their heads which is very different and not always so pleasant to listen to.

I know Irish On Your Own was also scripted, but I think that if the speakers of this course read longer bits of material, it would have sounded just as nice.

Perhaps someone who is familiar with the Ulster variety of Irish could comment on the pronunciation used by Deirbhile. Her "a" is more in line with the other dialects, altho she does have a tendency to pronounce her "u" in the way Ulster people speak English, resembling a French (or Scottish) "u".

(In defence of Donegal Irish the area did not see as drastic loss of Irish speaker as some other areas of Ireland did. See Ó Cuív "Irish Dialects in Irish-Speaking Districts" for the numbers. I believe there was actually an increase in the number of speakers 1850-1890 which was unique.)

Ahh...I found were I read that Ulster was the "underdog." It wasn't at Wikipedia like I thought. It is in a book I have here called "The Green Tongue" by Jay Thomas.

His book talks about the Irish language and its history and he makes the comment:

"When they came together to attempt a standard spelling and pronunciation, they didn't treat all dialects equally in consideration. The dialects of the north were not given the proper attention for two reasons. The first and maybe the greatest reason was the fact that two of the three major dialect groupings (Munster, Connacht) were closer in sound and current spellings leaving the third grouping (Ulster) as the underdog. The second major reason for the exclusion of the third grouping (Ulster) was the political climate of the time. With the southern counties trying desperately to separate themselves from the British, it wasn't very hard for them to associate all things north with all things British..."

And then he goes on to bash the British for being born.

Personally I found his book to be rather bad, and do not recommend it to anyone seriously interested in the Irish language because you don't really get anything out of except a renewed hatred of times long gone.

But one thing he does point out is the that if a person were to look at the numbers, Connacht Irish would seem to be the strongest because they have the most numbers when it comes to speaking Irish. However, what he points out is that Ulster Irish has the most numbers when it comes to native/fluent speakers of Irish. Which I thought was kind of interesting.

Sounds like inaccurate history to me.

Donegal, where the only Gaeltachts in the North are, has always been part of the "South"

How did he get his numbers?

To be honest I don't know where he gets his information. In the back of the book there is a works cited page about 8 pages long.

I will assume he gets his information from these?

And from the way he refers to the dialects in general, I think he is grouping them as (Ulster in the North, Connacht in the West, Munster in the South). He doesn't seem to seperate them from county or political association.

I really didn't like it, as I said, when I got done reading it I was left rather anti-British feeling for a few days because of all the finger pointing he did. But then as I started reading more into the history of the language, I noticed how he forgot to mention all the British scholars who worked very hard to study and preserve the language during these times also.

I think Mary Robinson said it best in one of here press statments in 1992, "The Ireland and England of today are not the Ireland and England of yesterday. And if we want a better Ireland and England tomorrow, we have to accept it."

I only wanted to bring the book up because he talks about how the Ulster dialects pronunciation varies from the standard spellings and can be a little confusing to us new learners.

And to make matters worse, there are not many resources out there for the Ulster dialects to really show itself off.

I think with the northern counties starting to take a more active interest in the language things are going to change a little. But from the little bits of information I have been able to piece together from different news sites...they are relying heavily on the Irish of Donegal as a model for Ulster Irish.

Me looking at the situation from the US, I think they have the chance to really do something special because they are going to begin their Irish programs from the ground up in some places so they have the ability to pick and choose from the lessons learned of the southern counties. Who knows, maybe as an act of unity, they might even choose to accept the one of the other dialects as their model? I doubt it, but times are changing, you never know ;0)

The person I'm taking a class from is from the North and his slender t and d is markedly like "ch" and "j" rather than the "ts" and "dz" sounds I hear on most other learning materials. And, as stated, he doesn't treat the a-fada as a long a.

I can't say I find the accent in any way offenseive, though. It's certainly less melodious but hardly unattractive.

*shrug*

Domhnall brings up something I noticed with the Irish On Your Own Course.

I have been following the other threads so I am sure there is going to be several here who are going to think differently on this, however, in the recordings I have...I also think they sound like they are giving the slender t and d a very distinct "ch" as in the Ameican English "cheese" and "j" as in the American English "justice."

Also, sometimes in the recordings it sounds like they are giving "dh and gh" a "y" as in the American English "yell" with little back of the throat action?

Now it could be that the cassette recordings are not picking up the actual sounds because they are a bad recording, and it could also be that they are simplifying the sounds for new learners, this is also possible. But as a new learner, that's what it sounded like to me.

In my transition for Irish On Your Own to Learning Irish I have been having a little troube with this because I want to make it easier on myself and just give the "y" sound.

I also think they sound like they are giving the slender t and d a very distinct "ch" as in the Ameican English "cheese" and "j" as in the American English "justice."

The cassettes didn't do the course justice; what sounds a bit vague on tape comes through much better on the television programmes (perhaps because you also see the mouths moving). If you can lay your hands on the videotape series (Oideas Gael used to have them), you might enjoy those better than the audio tapes. They'd be called "Now You're Talking", though -- IOYO was the North American title.

I just can't say 'tá' as 'tay',

Just the opposite of me! I have to make an effort to pronounce an [ɑː] in Irish :-)

For example, tá mé is "tay mah" for us, and "taw may" for yous :-)