In An Tuiseal Gairmeach The Vocative Case, on page 22 of my copy of Gael Linn's Gaeilge agus Fáilte, it explains the use of the Vocative, and ends with "This rule does not apply to names that are not in the Irish language e.g. Conas tá tú Simone?" Does this mean then that the made-up names at these postings would not get the séimhiú when being addressed in the vocative?

Sin mar a thuigimse é.

I'd say that even though you don't have to lenite foreign names, it probably wouldn't be "wrong" to lenite names around here. I try to lenite people's names if they can be lenited, whether IRish or not but that is just me.

Beir bua agus beannacht

i don't know...I think it means not to use the vocative with names in other languages like the question of whether or not to lenite "Boston" or "Texas."

Whether or not gaelicized names qualify as being "in the irish language" is a separate debate. I would argue that they do, since most of the Irish names we wouldn't bat an eye at are gaelicisations of names from latin or greek or hebrew etc (Seán, Máire, et al.)

It's a little bit loosey-goosey. Made-up names like Fear na mBróg that are 100% Irish to begin with are easy to put into the vocative. Podsers, for me, is a toss-up: either Hey Podsers or a Phodsers. I'm used to seeing myself addressed in writing as Dennis, Denis, a Dennis, a Dhennis, etc., as well as a Dhonncha, a Dhonnchaidh, a Dhonnacha, etc. Strictly speaking, the best versions are Hey Dennis and a Dhonncha. Irish-speakers particularly avoid leniting English names that begin with T- and D- . And I find that a lenited a Shimone does sound pretty odd. But as the saying goes, "You can call me anything... just don't call me late for dinner!"

Ar an láimh eile, vis-à-vis Simone ~ a Shimone, years ago I met a Scottish-Gaelic-speaking actor named Sìm Mac Coinnich. He grew up on Skye in a Gaelic-speaking family, and he confided to me that his native name Sìm always seemed slightly foreign to him. At home, his parents called him Simon, and always addressed him, in Gaelic, as a Shimon... pronounced just like the Jewish name Hymen ~ Haimen!

This is an interesting thread. I have wondered whether the vocative applies to my "handle", and have been asked this question.

Suaimhneas is not a personal name (I chose it because it is the name of my house). Although I suspect, given the modern trend for adopting words like Saoirse etc as female personal names, there is probably some wee girl named Suaimhneas out there

What are the reasons for not leniting on d,t,s?

Is it a) broad s =h so is ambiguous, but slender s =[ç] so is ok 'a Sheáin' or 'a Shéamuis'

b) d, and t had once dental fricative lenites but the reflex of broad th is now h, so is ambiguous?

c) the above got generalised to slender as well?

d) people don't like altering personal names so much?

e) the dentals/homorganic rule has interfered via generalisation



Dh = gamma
Th = h

dh =semi-vowel
th =[ç]

quote:

I have wondered whether the vocative applies to my "handle", and have been asked this question.

Tá sé an-éasca a Shuaimhnis a rá. Feictear domsa go bhfuil an gairmeach sin 100% nádúrtha.

quote:

b) d, and t had once dental fricative lenites...

Ní consain dhéadacha iad an 't' agus an 'd' sna hainmneacha Béarla Dennis, Douglas, Tim, Tony agus mar sin de, áfach. Is féidir go gcuireann an "labio-dental" dár tús na focail sin taobh amuigh de chóras na Gaeilge iad.

Fáth eile ar fad!

f) It just doesn't sound right (probably because I don't hear it done.) Leniting an 'S' sounds fine to me though.

In speech, I tend to lenite non-Irish names except t,d; in writing, I tend to lenite them all. No, it's not consistent and there's no grammatical reason for it - ach sin an nós a bhí ag mo mhúinteoir agus b'fhusa dom í a aithris ná a mhalairt.

quote:

Is it a) broad s =h so is ambiguous, but slender s =[ç] so is ok 'a Sheáin' or 'a Shéamuis'

There's no [ç] in 'a Shéamuis', but [h].
Slender sh (or th) is pronounced as [ç] only in front of long broad vowels as in 'a Sheáin' or 'a thiocfas'.

Lars

Grand.

What about the reasons for non lenition in Conermara above?