Haigh

Cupla seachtain ó shoin tháinig mé ar fhoclóir mhaith Manainnis-Béarla ar an idirlíon, ina rabh fuaimníocht achan fhocail (le trascríobh le siombóil a’ Bhéarla). Chan éireann liom é a dh’fháilt níos mó!

Nach bhfuil a fhios aige duine ar bith agaibh cad é ’n suíomh ina bhfuil sé?

Grma!

Fockleyr Gaelg - Baarle
[** Comhéadan Béarla **] Foclóir ar-líne Manainnis-Béarla.
ó
http://www.tobar.ie/lorg/An_Ghaeilge/_G_idhlig_-_Manainnis/index.html

Grma ach ní féidir a ghabháil ar an leathanach sin: nuair a chliceálam ar na nascannaí sin, freagartar nach bhfuil an leathanach sin ann... :-(

Ok, fuair mé aríst cá bhfaca mé ar tús é: ansin: http://www.gaelg.iofm.net/LESSONS/B/e2m.html agus ansin http://www.gaelg.iofm.net/LESSONS/B/m2e.html .

bwa lum ah oosaaij mo ghaalgye; gak law a shreev me peeosa beg

What was wrong with irish spelling?

Irish never has a k-sound.

Céard?

quote:

Céard?

He meant "ch" is never pronounced as [k], like in "gach" above

Tuigim anois, go raibh maith agat. Tá an focail sin 'never' beagáinín contúirteach, nach bhfuil?

quote:

Tá an focail sin 'never' beagáinín contúirteach, nach bhfuil?

people say a lot of illogical things if you watch them from the side, like "bigger half" (aren't halves equal?) and so on. But all those things make sense in context, like Lughaidh's comment above. I immediately understood what he meant although without context his statement is simply absurd

I id not know Manx had [x] so I did a k. For me [ç] [x] [kʲ] are all allophones of plain english [k] in my English when speaking, so I would hardly mix them in Irish where they are seperate phonemicly

[ç] cucumber [ç]úkumber. When spoken alone.

[x] buck 'fellow' bu[x] or 'John Lock', but never in veb 'to lock'. Mouth less open than in Irish version though

[kʲ] in cucumber when spoken in middle of a sentance

quote:

For me [ç] [x] [kʲ] are all allophones of plain english [k]

Rubbish! There is no such variety of English that has neither [ç], nor [x]! I was told some people from northern England can pronounce [x] correctly in "loch" - but this is by no means universal. "Chutzpah" should be pronounced with the same sound, but is it? Anyway [x] is not an allophone of [k] - there is NO such allophone.

Your post is confusing and contradictory. Are you saying no variety of English has them, or that no variety of english has neither?

In many speakers of Hiberno English [x] is used for plain k, depending on position, so functionally, it is in the same cathegory. Sometimes such terms are a little vague. If I have misused 'allophone' please correct me.

Remember than in Irish [x] is for many natives really [χ] (uvular fricative) and you can hear a clear difference between it and [x] as used in English in the country

A BhRN,

The question is what you understand by [x]??? I use this sign to denote uvular fricative chi-sound for laziness to dangle with Greek symbols. But if you make distincion between [x] and [chi] - then I wonder what you mean by this notation altogether.

What I said before - that no English variety has any of those sounds, at least not as "allophones". Allophone is an established pronunciation of some sound under certain conditions. So what you were trying to say - that in English there are certain conditions where [k] is always pronounced as [x] - what is an ultimate rubbish.

RE my "no variety of English". You are a witness of "complete breakdown of negation in English" in my person. Like in the song "Ain't no sunshine anymore" ;))))

No Rómán -léamh mo liopaí -In Ireland, in a number of words, many people, can be heard to have, [x] (velar fricative) for [k], and, I did not, pretend, it was, so systematic, as you think, I am, making it.

I pointed out that under [k] you can have 3 sounds in MY English, and other country people. I make them, as do some other people, in certain informal situations when beens sloppy. i speak normal, very soft english -no gamma, for example, but my inventory of consonat sounds is larger than natives in US or England you are reading about, but probably less in diphthongs

There is a lot of free-variation for [x] and [k], but only at end of word. Slender k is nearly all people have in a big swatht of Ulster at beginning of word. Ina few isolated cases it is initally further south too. Slender ch is only at beginning of certain words. You are altering my words. I gave where they occur. They do in a few cases, and that's it. When I learned from studies how sounds differ, I noticed them. Since others have them, it is not just me.

One book, by one of the Ó Cúiv's mentioned the way [x] and [k] alternated in Clare. I will look for it.

Anyway, regardless of 'allophone' or not, they are there! And used as I said, so if I used the term 'allophone', wrong, it is mighty close! How did I make the Irish equivalents immediatly, after reading dialect studies, if I did not have them? The reason I find bad pronounciation odd is that I can make more sounds readily than americans and Dubliners, and increasing them is as a consequence easier. One tends to focus on strengths. Other people are better in grammar, since they might have technical/engineering training, but I honour their abilities, and dont disparage them.

"no English variety has any of those sounds" -yes the 3 sounds I gave ARE in country english, and are an over hang from earlier hiberno english, and used in certain words, and in very informal speech. 'slender ch in Cucumber might be from ancestors trying to pronounce this new odd word. When some people, myself included, say "ahh, he's so cute" for a baby or kitten, the palatal is strong and actually long for empasis so that it could be [çː] sometimes. This is the reality of very marginal sounds. I dont think they are left overs from Irish, more that they came about in a population where there is a weighting towards palatal sounds statistically, and popped back in the odd time.

I know 2 people who were orginally from accross or near the irish border, that have tapped, trilled and retroflex r, but its no big deal. should I say they dont becasue a dialect book from another part of Ireland about Irish only has tapped r for broad r, but they have 3 sounds under the wing of English 'r'? As a native english speaker, you well know my sounds are not dependant on how great geat etc grandmammy spoke 300 years ago!

And you are "witness breakdown of proportion' "ten times less"! And break down of definite article!

Róman, Scottish English regularly has an [x] sound as you said in loch and other words; I am not sure about Northern England as there are no lochs there, but non-retarded southern English also pronounce an [x] in loch because we know that is how the Scots pronounce.

Chutzpah? What??? This word not not appear in British English and I suspect not in Irish English either. Some people might recognize it as a New Yorkish term of Yiddish origin - I guess 90% of English people would have no idea what this word means but might understand it in context - and if we were called upon to say it could pronounce it with [x] or [h]. There is also a Jewish Festival, but as far as I know this could be Hanukkah or Chanukkah in English, so pronouncing these words with [h] wouldn't be strange. There is only a small Jewish community in England, and there are no words of Yiddish origin in British orgin that I know of.

Basically when this sound occurs in foreign language textbooks, English books tend to encourage us to say it "like a German ach", but many people seem to think the German "ich" is the same sound and use that word to illustrate it too. The German composer's name, Bach, would also sound strange in English without the [x]. Van Gogh supposedly should use this sound too, but we say [gof]. Strange how there is such a hit and miss awareness of this phoneme in Britain.

quote:

Chutzpah? What??? This word not not appear in British English

I would suggest that "The Economist" is as British English as it is possible to go. That's where I saw this word for the first time and rushed for the dictionary. But if you consider "The Economist" not to represent the British English - I will revise my position.

(Message edited by Róman on January 14, 2007)

I heard the word chutzpah on an episode of Oprah which talked about couragious women, that is how I know what that word means but you are probably right that most Americans don't know what it is.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Yeah, I knew English speakers from Loch Neaghe area, in Northern Ireland, who would pronounce /k/ as [x] in English at the end of words. For example, and it was quite funny, it made them pronounce the irish "chnoc" like [krɔx], because in their English, [x] can't stand at the beginning of a word, neither [k] at the end of a word...

To: Topic-Control Officer - Sir, permission requested to write off-topic, sir.

Chutzpah is used by theatre and screen actors and singers, to mean having unfailing courage, but in the Yiddish community, it can also have a negative connotation, as in being arrogant. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutzpah

Another word of Yiddish origin that does not have a negative connotation is "moxie," also meaning to courage. See:

http://www.answers.com/moxie

Ba mhaith le mo mhac a bheith ina aisteoir, agus bím ag rá leis gach la "You gotta have chutzpah" and he sures has it!

Mac Léinn na.... (conas dearfa "Yiddish" as Gaeigle)

I don't believe "moxie" is of Yiddish origin. The word is derived from Cionaodh's favorite beverage.

"Moxie load"is also a Dublin slang word for a large amount

as in "I had a moxie load of drink last night"

http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=Giúdais&lang=2

Mac Léinn na Giúdaise, a Mhack.

Conas tá do mhischpoche ar fad?

Scríobh Nicole: I don't believe "moxie" is of Yiddish origin

Go raibh maith agat, a Nicole; looks like I stand corrected. Looks like the word originates for the name of a berry:

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970130

Go raibh maith agat a Aonghuis as an cuidiu leis an leasainm, ach ní thuigim "mischpoche" Ni feidir liom é sin a fheicail sa foclóir.

Mac Léinn na Giúdaise

focal Giúdaise do do mhuintir atá ann.

Scríobh Mac:

quote:

To: Topic-Control Officer - Sir, permission requested to write off-topic, sir.

Mar a deir Ríona go minic ar na mallaibh, "Tá tú greannmhar." Ach is tusa a dúirt freisin:

quote:

To date, with some few, isolated exceptions, this site has been a place where beginners and experts alike can come and discuss the study of the Irish language without dragging in politics, religion, and other non-language-study issues.

Tá fadhb mhór ag baint le comhrá ar bith i mBéarla atá off-topic, sir : tosaíonn sé le rud éigin neamhurchóideach agus críochnaíonn sé áit ar bith. Féach, mar shampla, an snáithe "Imeacht na nIarlaí". Thosaigh sé i nGaeilge. Fadhb ar bith. Ansin thosaigh duine amháin ag scríobh i mBéarla agus fearg air. Ansin bhí Béarla ar fud na háite, faoi chrainnte a cheannach, crainnte ar na cnoic i gCalifornia (crainnte nach raibh ann riamh, ach sin scéal eile), agus faoi dheireadh, céard atá againn ach "contempt for Americans" in Éirinn!

Bheadh sé i bhfad níos fearr cloí leis an teanga: (a) an Ghaeilge a phé i mBéarla, nó (b) teachtaireachtaí a scríobh i nGaeilge. I nGaeilge nó faoin nGaeilge. Le do thoil!

sa chás sin, is oth liom.
tá cathú orm faoi sin.

"grágar mór is ubh beag"

quote:

I nGaeilge nó faoin nGaeilge. Le do thoil!

Tuigim a dhuine uasail. Conas dearfa "topic-control officer" as Gaeilge?

Mac Léinn Ábhar

A Mhic Leinn an Tochrais

"Oifigeach Frithghreann" b'fhéidir?

A Shuaimhnis, ní thuigim tochras= winding?

oifigeach = officer

frith = anti-, counter-

greann = fun

Mar sin,

Oifigeach Frithghreann = Anti-fun Officer?

A Mhic

Sea,Tochras "wind-up" in this instance.

Anti-fun officer, sin é go díreach

A Shuaimhnis, (Am I leniting your name correctly?)

Tá tú an-ghreannmhar! (I mean funny, not wierd).

Ní thuigim "wind-up." Wind-up, as in "wind-up toy?" Or "wind-up" as in "all wound up" (overly excited)?

Mac Léinn Grinn

A Mhic

I think it's "A Shuaimhneas" - that's what Aonghus uses anyway, and that's good enough for me.

wind-up
noun

1. The taunting or teasing of someone, eg the playing of a practical joke on them. See also wind someone up

http://www.allwords.com/word-wind-up.html

A Shuaimhneas,

Tuigim anois, go raibh maith agat as leasainm eile. Ní bhfaca an sainmhiniú sin roimh.

Mac Léinn na Gaeilge - uimhir leasainmneacha - over 50!

A Shuaimhnis a bheadh agamsa. The noun is only spared slenderisation when it's something like a term of endearment, m.sh. a stór.

I'd understood that it is omitted whenever the noun is not applied literally. For example, I'd say "a mhic" if talking to my own son, "a mhac" to anyone else.
(When the noun is further qualified, such as "mac léinn" or "mac léinn na gramadaí," things get a little more interesting...)

I suppose the remaining question is, do we regard Suaimhneas as his (her?) "real name" on this forum, or as a figurative appellation?

I always slenderize the last sylable by making it a Shuaimhneais, I don't know if that is OK but it seems like the common thing to do with names.

Beir bua agus beannacht