A Chairde,

A new Yahoo! Group has been started - Teach Yourself [Standard] Irish. This group is for the study of the book Teach Yourself Irish (3rd Edition), which is based on Standard Irish, and written by Diarmuid Ó Sé and Joseph Sheils. This newly formed Yahoo! Group should not be confused with the Yahoo! Group TYI Munster, (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TYIMunster/) which is the excellent study group for the earlier editions of the book by the same name which focuses on the Munster dialect.

Besides the main text "Teach Yourself Irish," the companion text to the book is "Teach Yourself Irish Grammar," by Eamonn O Donaill (ISBN-13: 978-0340904947), which is a newly available book that will greatly assist in expanding on grammatical topics covered in the main text "Teach Yourself Irish."

If you're interested in joining please click on the following link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teachyourselfirish/

Le meas,

Mac Léinn na Gaeilge

Maród thú, a Mhic Léinn na Gaelainne caighdeánaithe!

Conas dearfa as mBearla maród - mad? Ní ainm Gaeilge é maród, an ea?

maród = maróidh mé < maraigh

An tusa a chuir an grúpa nua seo ar bun, Mack?

Go raibh maith agat a Dennis. Bhuel, tá mo sheaicéad flak orm, mar sin, tá mé reidh! Conas dearfa "flak jacket" as mBearla?

Agus 'sea, is mise a chuir an grúpa nua ar bun.

FRC-GRMA

P.S. I wonder if "murder threats" are considered impolite and contrary to the purposes of this forum, even if they have a funny clipart after them?

Go n-éirí an grúpa leatsa agus leis na daoine eile a bheidh páirteach ann!

quote:

tá mé réidh

This one makes me laugh every time I see it (nothing personal, a Mhic Léinn ). Aparently in Munster "réidh" is said about the people ready to travel to the world beyond. Otherwise you might want to say "ullamh".

p.s. Maybe it is an appropriate answer in the context of my "murder threats", he he he

réidh [aidiacht den chéad díochlaonadh]
mín, leibhéalta (áit, talamh réidh); socair, bog (siúl go réidh; tóg go réidh é); réchúiseach (is réidh a tháinig an bhréag leis); ullamh (tá an dinnéar réidh; an bhfuil tú réidh fós?); críochnaithe (abair é is bí réidh leis).

---

Téann tú thar fóir sách minic le do chanúnachas, a Róman. Ba cheart duit bheith níos réchúisí!

What is the difference between Standard Irish and Munster Irish? From my bit of research, I've decided that Munster Irish is what a lot of books are written in, Connemara Irish is perhaps the most popular but also the most colloquial, and Ulster Irish is what is spoken in Ulster when Irish is spoken of course, and is what most of the internet TV and radio is done in. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So where does Standard Irish fit in? Thanks.

A Aonghuis,

I just don't get your comment. It was clearly communicated that this is MUNSTER meaning of this word, any my reaction to it as any Munster speaker's would be. Shall I impose self-censorship and keep quiet that there might be interdialectal misunderstanding involved??? 99% of people here might not even been aware that a part of speakers would not call themselves "réidh" in any meaningful circumstances, lest jokingly.

The fact that dialects have different meanings is neither new, nor pertinent to Irish only. For example, it was fun to learn that "cute" is used in Ireland to mean "smart, witted", not "nice looking" as I knew it before. Would I be better off if I were denied this information?

p.s. And actually main meaning of this word is "smooth", "soft", not "ready". I have a nagging suspicion that meaning "ready" has been spread by apparent similarness to the English word "ready". So it might be a cute idea to use "ullamh" in this context? Safer, just in case? Spiritually inclined nations don't approve of living people calling themselves "dead" - it might be superstitions, but I wouldn't like to check if they are wrong.



(Message edited by Róman on January 12, 2007)

No. But the way you phrase you information can cause uncertainty.

For example, Ríona was confused about using "greannmhar" in the way most Irish speakers would correctly understand her, particularly given the context, after a strongly phrased comment by you.

Laughing at people (which could be understood for your comment above, even with the disclaimer) is not good manners.

quote:

Laughing at people

I was laughing at the SENTENCE, not the person. Please do not accuse me of the things I never did! This is no good manners either.

p.s. Greannmhar - means at least in part of Ireland "queer". And even successive reprints of Foclóir Poca didn't change it. Maybe because natives don't consult dictionaries when they speak???

I didn't say you were, I said people might think you were.

You have standing in this community; people listen when you say things, and can come away with the impression that what they have said is completely wrong, when it isn't - it would only be unusual in (certain parts of) Munster.

But most fluent speakers, given the context, would understand perfectly what was said, even if they would say it differently.

Maidir le greannmhar, an bhfaca tú é seo?

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=13510&post=49107#POST49107

(Message edited by aonghus on January 12, 2007)

Word "greannmhar" is pronounced "greannúr" almost all of the time. There is no established spelling "greannúr" so "greannmhar" is by default is read with "ú". Reading with "mh" is rather rare and unusual.

Furthermore- let's open Foclóir by Ó Domhnaill

greannmhar 1. funny (a) humorous ... (b) odd, strange, queer, curious

What does this mean? I will tell you - it means that English word "funny" has TWO meanings. And when you read that "greannmhar"="funny" in smaller dictionaries you are not aware that both meanings are involved.

The conclusion - if you are careful speaker, and don't really believe that "clann"="family", then using "greannmhar" to mean "funny" without the shades of "strange, odd, curious, queer" might not be the most appropriate solution. There are many other rich words that convey the pure idea of "fun without queerness".


Oh - I have a great idea. Of course nobody would deny that word "gay" means also "funny, hilarious", would anybody? But for some reasons I would pick other word when I would like to stress "gaiety" as opposed to "gayness". But it is a free country and we are free to choose words.

Your reading of Ó Donaill is contradicted by usual usage on RnaG and by An Foclóir Beag

greannmhar [aidiacht den chéad díochlaonadh]
lán de ghreann, sultmhar; corr, aisteach.

Normally dictionaries give words in order of the commonest meaning.

By all means point out the nuances of usage. But do not attempt to impose your understanding of a particular dialect as the norm everywhere and for everybody.

In another thread I gave many examples of greannmhar meaning humourous taken from Gaeltacht writers.

quote:

Normally dictionaries give words in order of the commonest meaning.

I hate to lecture knowledgeable people as Aonghus undoubtely is, but ... Different meanings are noted by different numbers in dictionaries. Therefore in Ó Domhnaill you have "2. amiable..." as well. But "1 (a)..." and "(b)..." are not different meanings - those are the shades of the same meaning. And actually those are just to make sure that English people using the dictionary understand correctly what the editors meant by the word "funny". Those are not translations in fact, but clarifying explanations.

Next, words in different languages do not map exactly 100%, especially adjectives. Therefore, the meaning of "queerness" is rare for "funny" in English, but by no means rare in Irish. And this was the message of the dictionary - to make sure that reader understands "greannmhar" is not only "ha-ha", but something deeper.

so I do not "impose my understanding of a particular dialect as the norm" - I just write how the real Irish looks like. When you use dictionary - be sure you understand how the material is organised and how to profit most from this resource.

And last point - I may be irredeemable, but I will always oppose imposition of English logic and word usage on Irish. English people have no monopoly on Irish whatsoever. So even if generations of Irish students were taught that clann = family, I will not agree with this, because it is simply not true. I know it is very easy to say greannmhar=funny and don't bother, but it is much more complicated than this. Do not impose your English word usage on Irish!

Not arguing with the Munster usage, just providing a data point from another dialect:

I'm studying under a native speaker from Ceantar na nOileán (Connemara). "Réidh" is what she quite commonly uses for "ready." Depending on context it can also mean "finished" (e.g. "nuair a bhéas tú réidh le do chuid obair bhaile.")

When she says "ullamh" it seems to have a slightly different connotation: "ready" edging toward "prepared." I've never asked her outright about that difference, though, so it may be in my imagination.

Abigail

Abigail,

Cé hé nó hí atá in do mhúinteoir as an gceantar seo, más é do thoil é? Mar is glan díreach ins na hOileáin sea tá mé anois.

(Message edited by peter on January 12, 2007)

Róman,

may I suggest you look up "humourous" in an English Irish dictionary of your choice?

I have already demonstrated that an Foclóir Beag defines that greannmhar means "lán de ghreann, sultmhar"; as well as "corr, aisteach".

Tara Macleod as Leitir Mealláin. An bhfuil aithne agat uirthi?

quote:

I have already demonstrated that an Foclóir Beag defines that greannmhar means "lán de ghreann, sultmhar"; as well as "corr, aisteach".

So let's make a logical conclusion out of this sentence . If ONE WORD means simultaneously "aisteach" and "lán de ghreann" - why are you arguing with me? I am saying this all along. There are NO two words "greannmhar1" and "greannmhar2", one of which means "funny" and other "strange" - it is ONE AND THE SAME word with a meaning "funny because strange" or "strange because funny". 2 in 1 like Head'n'Shoulders

Níl, ach is dóigh go bhfuil aithne súile agamsa ar a driofúr, mar a dúradh ar ball beag liom. Ar aon chaoi, ní raibh mise ach curious. GRMA

Scríobh Guest: What is the difference between Standard Irish and Munster Irish?............

A Guest a chara, I think you observation that a lot of books are written in the Munster dialect is accurate. I've heard tell that the Munster dialect is often considered the literary dialect of Irish. In regard to the Ulster dialect, I don't think it's the most prevalent dialect on radio or TV, but definitely makes its presence known through these media.

Standard Irish is an attempt to unite the three major dialects, and it's also seen in written media and heard in the radio and TV media, especially when the writer or speaker is from outside one of the Gaeltachts.

I think that Standard Irish is in some ways akin to Standard Americian English, at least as it applies here in the USA. For example, if you're down South, say in Texas, someone might say "are y'all fixin' to come right 'cheer?" And up in my neck of the woods (New Joisey) you might hear me say "youse gunna come ovah?" But in Standard American English, we would all write "Are you coming here?"

I know the analogy's not the best, but at least it's an attempt to show that Standard "whatever," be it in English or Irish, has a unifying effect. For American English, that unifying effect may not be so important but for Irish, which in some folks' minds, is holding on by a thread, anything that can effectively unite the three dialects would go along way to ensuring the survival of the language. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole?

quote:

ní raibh mise ach curious

Is suimiúil an rud é gur bhain tú feidhm as an bhfocal Béarla anseo. Bíonn drogall orm i gcónaí "fiosrach" a úsáid in abairt mar sin. "Le teann fiosrachta" a deirim uaireanta, agus "is duine fiosrach mé". Ach níl mé thar a bheith sásta le "ní raibh mé ach fiosrach". Níl a fhios agam cén fáth.

Dála an scéil, Peter --- ó tá tú sa Ghaeltach, an mbeifeá sásta "faisnéis éigin ar na divarsions agus advintures abhí ann" a thabhairt dúinn, thíos i nGaeltacht an chláir seo?

Scríobh Abigail: I'm studying under a native speaker from Ceantar na nOileán (Connemara). "Réidh" is what she quite commonly uses for "ready."

In Teach Yourself Irish [STANDARD IRISH], Chapter 10, Dialogue 1, Seán is called to his evening meal by the landlady:

Bean an tí: "A Sheáin! Tá dinnéar réidh."

I always thought that it meant "Dinner is ready," but now based on Róman's thesis, I'm not too sure; maybe it's a take off from Arsenic and Old Lace, one of Cary Grant's greatest performances.

quote:

but now based on Róman's thesis

My thesis was about "réidh" as used in relation to people. No dinners meant :)

BTW, A Róman, I do appreciate your sense of humour. I was just taken aback by your remark maród for a not-so-obvious reason. When I first saw the word, I initially scoured my dictionaries and online resources and couldn't find the word maród anywhere. So then I got to thinking it was a word from one of the Eastern European languages that you know. So, since I work at a company with folks from all over the world, I spent part of the morning running around and asking them what the word meant. The closest we could find was a Czech word, but nobody speaks Czech here so we didn't know what it meant. Then I find out, thanks to Dennis, that it's a Munster dialect word. I should have figured.

On a more serious note, would the use of "réidh" in regard to inanimate objects be acceptable and/or common in the Munster dialect? That is, would "Tá dinnéar réidh" be an acceptable way of saying "dinner is ready" in the Munster-dialect area? Or would that be a funny way......er.... I mean weird.... er.... you know what I mean!

quote:

I was just taken aback by your remark maród for a not-so-obvious reason.

Sorry, it may not seem logical. But it is greannmhar'ly logical. . Previously on the same day I was talking to our back office, and the was a small problem, caused indirectly by my involvement, so the girl said "I'll kill you!" (jokingly of course). So maybe in this mood - I reacted to your post (that you promote caighdeán instead of Munster dialect, so to say). I know it sounds convoluted, but people do a lot of irrational things, no offence was meant, really!

quote:

So then I got to thinking it was a word from one of the Eastern European languages that you know.

For God's sake, why would I insert an obscure word from obscure language in an otherwise perfectly Irish sentence?

quote:

would the use of "réidh" in regard to inanimate objects be acceptable and/or common

Of course, meaning "smooth", "level".

quote:

That is, would "Tá dinnéar réidh" be an acceptable way of saying "dinner is ready" in the Munster-dialect area?

Tá dinnéar ullamh, gan amhras. Saying "réidh" about dinner feels stilted and alien to the dialect.

quote:

Or would that be a funny way......er.... I mean weird....

That's when the word "greannmhar" comes handy. It expresses nicely this feeling - "strange, funny, akward".

For God's sake, why would I insert an obscure word from obscure language in an otherwise perfectly Irish sentence?

Níl fhios agam go shíl mé é sin, ach is innealtóir mé, mar sin, nuair a ní bhfuair an focal sin, thosaigh mé ag smaoinigh "amach sa bhosca."

.....so the girl said "I'll kill you!" (jokingly of course). Tuigim a chara, bhain díom mo sheaicéad flak cheanna.


FRC-GRMA

How about if I use greannmhar here and if I ever end up in the Muskerry Gaeltacht I'll make sure not to use it.I think that is a fair compromise and then we won't have to worry about it anymore. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

Go raigh ma agat. That analogy works very well, actually, as long as it's true. :) I ask because I'm learning Munster Irish via Pimsleur, which I think suits my learning style. even though I suspect the region I most want to visit is western Ireland, Galway specifically. Assuming that I continue to study Irish, (which is a significant assumption) I'd like to understand locals if and when I visit a Gaeltacht in Connemara (which is in the west, right?) I'm sure I'll be understood, I just want to understand. I say this because I've already seen three different way to say "how are you?" and the only one I understand is "conas tann tu." (Not sure if I spelled that correctly, as I'm sure you know, Pimsleur doesn't provide the text, and I want to avoid the reading bit for the moment, baby steps.)

A Guest, a chara,

I think the most important aspect of learning Irish is getting a handle of the basic sytax, e.g., verb-noun-object, verb constructions, and last but not least, VOCABULARY. I would venture to say that if one only knew vocabulary, one could communicate with a native speaker. It might not be eloquent, but at least communication would occur. The Pimsleur course is great in that you'll get a good handle on some of the fundamentals of Irish. If you'd like to see the Pimsleur's text go to:

http://www.gaeilge.org/pimsleurtranscript.html

where the complete text of the Pimsleur's tapes has been transcribed.


Conradh na Gaeilge Shasana Nua Abú!

Go raigh ma gat. I'll check out that transcript after I've made it through the audio. finally registered as "finbarr"

Hi Mack,

quote:

Níl fhios agam go gur shíl mé é sin, ach is innealtóir mé, mar sin, nuair a ní nach bhfuair an focal sin, thosaigh mé ag smaoinigh "amach sa taobh amuigh den bhosca."

quote:

FRC-GRMA

Ná habair é. Tá do chuid Gaeilge ag dul i bhfeabhas ó lá go lá!