I want to order some book from Litríocht, and I know that the 1995 Séadna is the authentic Munster dialect. Do people know the answer to these questions? I have asked them, but I am not sure how hard they will scrutinize the books.

1. Is the 1994 edition of Deoraíocht "caighdéanized" or is it the authentic Galway dialect?
2. Is Fiche Blian ag Fás available on Litríocht, I think it is 1998 edition, pure Munster dialect or has this been caighdéanized too?
3. I thought the Cré na Cille CDs for 40 euros were just CDs, but the Litríocht listing files them under "hardback books"? Is this a book and CD package?

2. Gently caighdéanized
3. Misfiled. Only CDs.

The Caighdeán and dialectic differences are not necessarily antagonistic, as many people seem to presume. The Caighdeán is fundamentally a spelling standard, not a pronunciation one. The standard that was chosen in the 1950's was done so as to eliminate old archaic spellings that had died out in all modern Irish dialects(such as the archaic 'th', which has not been pronounced since the Middle-Irish period in the Middle Ages) not to suppress modern dialectic differences. And it was very tolerant of elements of pronunciation that had died out in some dialects but not others. Such as the 'gh' in 'Suigh', which is still pronounced in Munster, and so is part of the standard spelling, despite not being pronounced elsewhere.

Even with Caighdeán spelling Irish is called Gaoluinn/Gaelainn in Munster and Gaeilge in Connaught.

There is no 'gh' pronounced in Suigh in Munster, is there? Is it not a slender g rather than /j/ that is pronounced?

quote:

The Caighdeán is fundamentally a spelling standard, not a pronunciation one.

Wrong! There is no way one can arrive at pronouncing (correctly) [tra:g']/ [tra:j] from the spelling "trá". So this spelling makeover basically skipped some pronounced sounds and by that IMPOSING stilted pronunciation.

quote:

The standard that was chosen in the 1950's was done so as to eliminate old archaic spellings that had died out in all modern Irish dialects

Idea was OK, gan amhras. You will never hear me advocating writing "oidhche" instead of "oíche". Unfortunately the creators of caighdeán soon abandoned their initial admirable intentions and pursued a narrow agenda of some Conamara freaks, who were determined to make Caighdeán to their liking.

That's why you have forms in caighdeán used by absolute MINORITY of speakers like "feicim" (instead of "chím"/"cím"/"tchím") on top.

quote:

Such as the 'gh' in 'Suigh', which is still pronounced in Munster

And Ulster, and Mayo, and even all area to the north of Gailleamh. It is EASIER to say, where it is not pronounced

quote:

There is no 'gh' pronounced in Suigh in Munster, is there?

Slender 'g' is pronounced.


(Message edited by Róman on January 09, 2007)

That's what I said. GH is not g...

Of course if I said I was, and gave in to twisted logic, I'd be right too, becasue gh is g and that's that...

Román, your post seems to point out the northen semi-vowel ending and the slender palatal g Munster one, but make no attempt to limit the conflation and/or confusion of the original post!

I wasn't really talking about spelling when it said "is it caighdéanized", as I assume the modern spellings will be used in any book published nowadays. I was talking about whether the dialectal features - morphology, lexis and syntax - had been standardized. Thanks for your answer, Aonghus.

As for Duine's comments: in fact as you delve deeper and deeper there are more and more examples of the CO not preserving forms that reflect all pronunications. What about níonn for nigheann? Isn't that pronounced bisyllabically in many parts of Ireland? Also the new spelling has made regular verbs irregular and interfered with noun declension. Níonn is an example of an irregular verb made irregular, and baintreach - baintrí is an example of an irregularity introduced into noun declensions. etc. etc etc

But I was talking about features other than spelling...

I wasn't really talking about spelling when it said "is it caighdéanized", as I assume the modern spellings will be used in any book published nowadays. I was talking about whether the dialectal features - morphology, lexis and syntax - had been standardized. Thanks for your answer, Aonghus.

As for Duine's comments: in fact as you delve deeper and deeper there are more and more examples of the CO not preserving forms that reflect all pronunications. What about níonn for nigheann? Isn't that pronounced bisyllabically in many parts of Ireland? Also the new spelling has made regular verbs irregular and interfered with noun declension. Níonn is an example of an irregular verb made irregular, and baintreach - baintrí is an example of an irregularity introduced into noun declensions. etc. etc etc

But I was talking about features other than spelling...

quote:

as I assume the modern spellings will be used in any book published nowadays

Not necessarily - nuair a bhíos i nÉrinn an samhradh so caite - do cheannaíos Pinocchio (2001) - leagan pre-Caighdeán. But it is a special book - 500 copies only, all of them numbered and signed individually.

Tá an chéad focal sa leabhar - "cionnus" - an dtuigir anois?

There is an excellent recent novel, Fontenoy le Liam Mac Cóil. About half of the text is in 18th century idiom and spelling. Is úrscéal stairiúil é, faoi dhuine a bhí páirteach sa chath sin, sa Fhrainc.

Rómán. I did say fundamentally, not absolutely.