I have just finished lesson 18 of Learning Irish, which is half way through the book. Can anyone help with these queries?

1) The book says that time clauses must be followed by the indirect relative (with dependent form of the verb), eg sin é an t-am a raibh Cáit anseo, but makes an exception for an uair, saying that this can be either direct relative or indirect relative: an uair a bhí Cáit anseo or an uair a raibh Cáit anseo. Am I right in saying this is directly opposite to standard Irish, where words like “am” and “lá” can take either the direct or indirect relative, but “nuair” must take the direct relative? This is what I understand from Mac Congáil's grammar book anyway, but it seems odd that Cois Fhairrge should have it topsy turvy.

2) The book does not say what verb goil is the verbal noun of , and I note that some people on daltaí use dul. What is the origin of these two verbal nouns?

3) I thought "céard" meant "what" and "cé" meant "who", but then I notice that cé is used for what in "cé air a bhfuil a n leabhar?" Can someone straighten out cé, cén, céard for me? This may sound basic, but I can't find a neat explanation in Learning Irish. Where are you from? is apparently: Cé as thú?

4) I couldn't find aiféal/aiféala or árasán in Dinneen's dictionary although I tried a number of spellings. Should these words be in there?

Thank you!

2) The book does not say what verb goil is the verbal noun of , and I note that some people on daltaí use dul. What is the origin of these two verbal nouns?

SOmething to do with ghul/ghuil and then formed back to goil, but the history I dont know of.

As for árasán, it may be just too new for Dineen?

1) It isn't topsy turvy.
To use direct relatives is perhaps a modern development, and to use indirect relatives is the more conservative way.
So, Cois Fharrige Irish is more conservative here.

And you have to make a difference between "an uair = the hour/time" (+ direct/indirect rel.) and "nuair = when" (+ direct relative only also in Cois Fh.; lesson 13)

2) dul is Standard Irish

3) cé is used in the sense of "what" in Conamara, esp. with prepositions (cé as, cé leis, cé dó, cé air, etc.)
So, "cé air" means both: "On what" and "on whom".
In Ulster/Munster there is "cá/cad air" ("on what") and "cé air" ("on whom")
"Cén" (cé + an) is "which".

4) You need a modern dictionary.
aiféala, old spelling: aithmhéala (thmh [f])

Lars

(Message edited by lars on January 07, 2007)

quote:

And you have to make a difference between "an uair = the hour/time" (+ direct/indirect rel.) and "nuair = when"

This seems illogical to me. "Nuair" is a contraction of "an uair", so why there should be any difference?

Re "céard". It is a contraction of "cé is rud" therefore it is obvious this word cannot be used with prepositions. I this Munster's "cad" is of the same provenance. Or was it from "cá+rud"? Éinne?

quote:

This seems illogical to me. "Nuair" is a contraction of "an uair", so why there should be any difference?

If there were no difference at all, why would be there different spellings, "nuair" and "an uair"?
I'd think the first is seen as a simple conjunction ("when"), and the second is seen as a real noun ("the time": "an uair a bhí mé i nGaillimh agus an uair eile a bhí mé i Luimneach")

Lars

quote:

Re "céard". It is a contraction of "cé is rud"

Ní dóigh liom é. Deirtear go minic gur giorrachán de "cén rud" atá ann. Tá faisnéis shoiléir againn gur ó "cía rét" (= cé rud) a tháinig an sean-forainm ceisteach "créad". Is féidir go dtáinig "céard" as "créad" trí mheititéis, ach níl mé cinnte.

This seems illogical to me. "Nuair" is a contraction of "an uair", so why there should be any difference?

Nobody knows why but so it is! There isn't always a logical explanation for all facts in a language... And it isn't the only strange thing in Irish grammar :)

Re "céard". It is a contraction of "cé is rud" therefore it is obvious this word cannot be used with prepositions. I this Munster's "cad" is of the same provenance. Or was it from "cá+rud"? Éinne?

No, cad is an old word (cf Latin quod, English what, Lithuanian kas, etc), I think.

Is féidir go dtáinig "céard" as "créad" trí mheititéis, ach níl mé cinnte.

Is dóigh liom é gomh maith.

quote:

1) Am I right in saying this is directly opposite to standard Irish, where words like “am” and “lá” can take either the direct or indirect relative, but “nuair” must take the direct relative?

In general, the handiest way to answer these questions is with a simple Google search. A "Google Fight" of "am a raibh" Vs. "am a bhí" yields 81:170. A fight of "lá a raibh" Vs. "lá a bhí" yields 38:92, so it would seem that the direct relative is more common.

quote:

2) The book does not say what verb goil is the verbal noun of , and I note that some people on daltaí use dul. What is the origin of these two verbal nouns?

By far, the most common Irish translation of English's verb "go" is "téigh", the verbal noun of which is "dul". You'll also see "gabh" here and there (not sure if it's a dialectal thing). As for "goil", I haven't a clue where it came from, but I'd say it's got links with either "dul" or "gabháil".

quote:

3) I thought "céard" meant "what" and "cé" meant "who", but then I notice that cé is used for what in "cé air a bhfuil a n leabhar?" Can someone straighten out cé, cén, céard for me? This may sound basic, but I can't find a neat explanation in Learning Irish. Where are you from? is apparently: Cé as thú?

I went through many years of school thinking that "cé" meant "who". Eventually though, I saw it being used in sentences such as:

Cé na litreacha a d'oscail tú?
What letters did you open?

Long story short is this: "Cé" doesn't necessarily mean "who", as it can be used with objects too. A brilliant example of this is "cén", which is for all intents and purposes a contraction of "cé an":

Cén t-amhrán a chan tú?
What song did you sing?

The inverse isn't true though, I don't think, i.e. you won't see "cad" or "céard" used when people are in the equation.

That said though, I've seen other regular contributors here indicate that "cé" does indeed solely translate as "who" in some dialects.

What's interesting about this is that you might need to put in that extra little effort when translating from Irish to English if there's little known of the context. For instance, imagine there was an Irish table quiz which you had to translate to English, but for which you didn't have the answers. One of questions could be something like:

Cé a mharaigh madra dheartháir an mhúinteora?

If you had no idea of the context of this question, then the only safe way you could translate it would be:

Who or what killed the teacher's brother's dog?

A "Google Fight" of "am a raibh" Vs. "am a bhí" yields 81:170. A fight of "lá a raibh" Vs. "lá a bhí" yields 38:92, so it would seem that the direct relative is more common.

That doesn't mean anythin at all. You can have sentences in which you say things like "the day that was nice" (an lá a bhí deas), the time that was passed (an t-am a bhí thart), etc, and in that case you can only have direct relatives. But "the day I was there" (an lá a raibh mé ann) isn't the same pattern at all!

By far, the most common Irish translation of English's verb "go" is "téigh", the verbal noun of which is "dul". You'll also see "gabh" here and there (not sure if it's a dialectal thing).

Gabh as an imperative form, it's important to say it. It is the form we use in Ulster Irish.

As for "goil", I haven't a clue where it came from, but I'd say it's got links with either "dul" or "gabháil".

It comes from gabháil; there may have been a mix with "dul" as well since "dhul" and "ghoil" sound the same way except for the "colour" of the last l.

Long story short is this: "Cé" doesn't necessarily mean "who", as it can be used with objects too.

Yeah, when an article follow it: cén / cé na.

The inverse isn't true though, I don't think, i.e. you won't see "cad" or "céard" used when people are in the equation.

Yeah, but if you translate it literally, it isn't exactly the same:

cén t-amhrán a chan tú? = what song/which song?
céard an t-amhrán a chan tú? = what is the song? (what thing is the song).

In Ulster we'd say "cad é 'n t-amhrán a d’úrt tú?".

That said though, I've seen other regular contributors here indicate that "cé" does indeed solely translate as "who" in some dialects.

Yeah, but I think it can mean "what...?" and "which...?" (followed by a noun) when "cé" is followed by an article (an or na). I've seen sentences with "cén...?" in Ulster texts, although "cé" alone only means "who" in that dialect, I think.

Have to make a difference between two English whats:

- what is that? ("what" stands alone before the verb: it is an interrogative pronoun)

- what book have your read? ("what" comes together with "book": it is an interrogative determinant or adjective)


Cé a mharaigh madra dheartháir an mhúinteora?

If you had no idea of the context of this question, then the only safe way you could translate it would be:

Who or what killed the teacher's brother's dog?

No, I don't think that "cé" alone can mean "what" (standing alone, as in "what is that") in any dialect.

You'd have:

Cé a mharaigh...? = who killed...?
or

Cad a mharaigh madra dhriotháir an mhúinteora? (Munster)
Céard a mharaigh madadh dhriotháir an mhúinteora? (Connemara)
Cad é a mharbh madadh deartháir an mhúinteora? (Ulster)
= What killed...?