Hi, all.

I'm waiting for a new Irish class to start up in my area (in the fall). In the meantime, I thought I'd take a look at a home-instruction course, sort of as a preview. (I fully understand that I will need an in-person class to actually learn much.)

Can anyone recommend a book, software program, or system?

Thanks

Hi Susan:
I also have just began learning Irish and this is the book and Cd set that I am using..Teach Yourself Irish By Diarmuid O Se. I also am using a Focloir Poca English-Irish Irish-English Dictionary By O'Donaill..Hope this helps and Good luck in your studies. Jennifer

Susan, A Chara:

The best resource, and by best I mean most thorough and comprehensive, is Learning Irish by Micheál Ó Siadhál. It teaches the Cois Fhairrage dialect which is spoken west of Galway. It is not an easy resource but it is generally accepted as the most thorough.

Teach Yourself Irish by Ó Sé is also a well respected resource but there are two versions. The earlier version generally receives the better comments from those who have used both.

Whichever one you use, be sure to get the tapes that go with the books. You'll never make sense of the Irish grammar nor the add juxtaposition of consonants and vowels without the audio that accompanies these books.

I would suggest that you stay clear of the Pimsleur CDs as there is no real instruction and the dialect is clearly Munster. Not that the Munster dialect is bad. Quite the contrary. Many feel it is the most widely accepted/recognized dialect. I just don't think there is much to be actually learned from the Pimsleur method. I hold this opinion primarily because there is no book associated with the Pimsleur set. It is purely rote memorization.

In contrast, I wholeheartedly recommend the Buntús Cainte books and CDs/Tapes. Note that I said "and" the CD's/tapes. The books alone will leave you with more questions than answers as the books are merely Irish words, phrases and sentences and some associated pictures. What sets this apart from the Pimsleur set is that this set has audio and books. It is still rote memorization...there isn't one bit of grammar explanation, but it is a rote memorization that has writtten and spoken words associated with it.

You'll get great enjoyment and not just a little bit of frustration from this language! Enjoy!

quote:

I hold this opinion primarily because there is no book associated with the Pimsleur set.

There is transcript and grammar explanations compiled by volunteers at :

http://www.gaeilge.org/pimsleurtranscript.html

So is not an issue. Pimsleur is very good - the only problem that the course is so limited (there are few lessons only)

Scríobh Róman: So is not an issue. Pimsleur is very good - the only problem that the course is so limited

The very fact that Pimsleur's course is so limited eliminates the possibility that it is "very good." It's like undertaking the study of mathematics and someone recommends a book that teaches you how to add 2+2 and a few other basic facts on math. That would not be considered a "very good" book. BTW, I have the Pimsleur CD's and love them, but I consider them ancillary at best to my studies of Irish.

Scríobh James: Teach Yourself Irish by Ó Sé is also a well respected resource but there are two versions. The earlier version generally receives the better comments from those who have used both.

I have both copies of Teach Yourself Irish. The earlier version is for folks who want to seriously study the Munster dialect. The earlier version is quite old fashioned in its approach to teaching the Irish language. Although the Munster dialect is quite beautiful and rich, it's not for the faint hearted to study. I couldn't get past Chapter 2! The newer, updated version is geared towards the Official Standard Irish, much to the chagrin of Munster-dialect die-hards. But it's a great book to begin studying Irish. The latest edition is available with CD's.

I don't think there's one single book that you'll wind up owning in your pursuit of the Irish language, but for starters James' recommendations of "Learning Irish" or "Buntús Cainte" are excellent, but don't rule out Teach Yourself Irish, unless of course you've already committed to learning the Munster dialect.

Thank you all for your responses. This is extremely helpful.

Sounds like I should start with Learning Irish, possibly supplemented with Buntus Cainte.

I'm really looking forward to the actual classes. I think I'll learn best that way. But who has the patience to wait 9 months?

Thanks again. I appreciate your help.

Susan,

In case you're interested, here are the links to Yahoo Groups that are related to Learning Irish and Buntús Cainte. You'll also find plenty of help on this Daltaí website.


Learning Irish http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coisfhairrge/

Buntús Cainte http://groups.yahoo.com/group/buntuscainte/


Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat! (Good luck!)

Cool. Thanks!

Susan, a chara,
Failte!

I have a couple of ideas for you:

Gaeltalk.net, an online tutoring service run bt native speakers in County Cork. I know several people who've used it, and they rave about it.

MeetUp.com: check out this website. Enter you zip code and see in there are any Irish-language get-togethers in your area. There's one in NYC that I attend, and it's great to have a chance to hear and speak the language.

Attend a Daltai na Gaeilge weekend or week, or one run by other Gaeilge groups in North America.

Listen to Togha agus Rogha, one of the Raidio na Gaeltachta (www.rnag.ie) programs that you can listen to on the web. It's a great show, on Sat and Sun afternoons, lots of great traditional music with dedications like "this goes out to my grandmother, Brid, who's in the hospital in Galway" -- lots of good clear Irish for you.

Slainte agus saol, Paul

Once you've got your "ears" wrapped around the sounds of the language you also might want to check out Ros Na Rún on www.tg4.ie It's a soap-opera that's done completely in Irish complete with sub-titles. You'll need some basic vocabulary and command of some of the idomatic expressions to really appreciate the nuances of the languge.

Wow. Thanks again, everyone. I am ordering some books, checking out websites, and crossing my fingers for the class in the fall.

You've bee so helpful!

quote:

The very fact that Pimsleur's course is so limited eliminates the possibility that it is "very good."

I do not agree with this. Take this analogy - you purchase a bestseller - start reading it avidly, you thick in the midst of the plot - and then you discover that the remainder of the book has just blank pages - printing defect. Does it make a book bad - or it is just a problem of editor-publishing house? Pimsleur course is good in the area it covers. Nobody would claim you become fluent after 8 lessons. But as a starter to hear real, NOT STILTED pronunciation (unlike the artificial one in the newest TYI) - it is ideal.

quote:

The earlier version is quite old fashioned in its approach to teaching the Irish language.

After my struggling with the book for 3 times, and never able to cross the threshhold of lesson 7 - I concluded it is not meant for studies at all! The most adequate use of the book - is to fine tune to Munster dialect AFTER you have already studied Irish (caighdean, Conamara - n'import quoi) with other book. There is simply TOO MUCH info crammed into every page. You can expand this book to some 300 A4 pages and it will still be very thorough and non-repeating.

quote:

The newer, updated version is geared towards the Official Standard Irish, much to the chagrin of Munster-dialect die-hards.

Wrong attitude! The newest version has nothing to do with the previous book! There is 10x less info in it, and it lamentably is done is caighdean. The grammar explanations in it are lacking. Is it a hint to buy TYI Grammar book???


Re Learning Irish - it is the most BORING text book I have ever seen in my life. And as I understand it was never meant to be TY book - rather an academic tool. Admittedly O Siadhal was amazed himself how the book caught on. But we know why - there is nothing better. But it does not make this book very good. The book is thin on dialogues, and exercises (translation) are very inadequate. If one could marry Buntús with LI - then YES - it would be a great book.

p.s. O Siadhal approach (texts, grammar pill, translations) is the most usual way of studying dead languages (Latin, Classical Greek) - maybe that is the problem with the book? It equips very badly for doing shopping through Irish, seeing doctor etc. Although I have the book myself - but I never checked if it is true that "Dia dhuit" is not introduced till lesson 21. ASTONISHING way of teaching a living language.

Scríobh Róman: Take this analogy - you purchase a bestseller - start reading it avidly, you thick in the midst of the plot - and then you discover that the remainder of the book has just blank pages - printing defect.

A Róman, I don't think your analogy works here. The problem with Pimsleur is not a printing defect; it's the authors' fault not to provide enough information to master the Irish language as Pimsleur claims the CD's will provide. I also have a problem understanding how a book could become a best seller with all but the first one or two chapters present.

Schríobh tú freisin: Wrong attitude! The newest version has nothing to do with the previous book!

I think you're just repeating what I wrote and what you captioned above. You also point out, as I did in the part you captioned, that the newer TYI is based on An Caighdeán, so it looks like we agree on this point.

Note to Susan: Failte! I hope our "lively" debate on this subject is not a deterrent to your beginning studies. Some of us enjoy extended discussions and I find that I often learn from them especially when engaged in a discussion with folks like Róman, who is very knowledgeable about the Irish language.

Pimsleur completely turned me around when it comes to Irish. When I first saw/heard the language it seemed so "foreign" to me - so incomprehensible- that I was sure I didn't have the intelligence to grasp it. After a few Pimsleur lessons, it still seemed hard but absolutely within the realm of possibility. I could say things in Irish in two days! Of course from there I have had to continue with other studies. Instead of an unfinished novel think of it as an appetizer which although tasty in it's own right also whets your appetite. Plus at thirty minutes a day it can fit into anyone's schedule.

"There is 10x less info in it"

Well, I gotta hand it to you -your english is coming on mighty if you are making such logical mistakes.

One can have ten times more, but 'one-tenth', as on is dealing with a whole, and a whole cannot be ten times less.

This is established usage in the Anglo world, so I suppose it is a sign of good grasp of english on your part!

BRN,

I think I have missed your point completely. You can have 10x more as well as 10x less of smth. What is the problem? There are two books with different contents. One book has 10x more than the other - conversely the other one in relation to the former has 10x less. Everything is relative, and there is no "whole" in this case as there TWO books. So where do you see a logical mistake?

seconded!

write it out as "ten times less", agus tá ciall ag baint leis.

seans go bhfuil brn fós faoi thionchair an leann conallach!

Scríobh Róman:

After my struggling with the book for 3 times, and never able to cross the threshhold of lesson 7 - I concluded it is not meant for studies at all! The most adequate use of the book - is to fine tune to Munster dialect AFTER you have already studied Irish (caighdean, Conamara - n'import quoi) with other book.

I have to reluctantly agree with this assessment. I tried working through this book several times in the early 1980s before putting it aside to work from other books. It's only with a firm foundation in the Caighdeán that this book now starts to make some sense to me -- I'm able to fill in a lot of the "blanks" from my own experience.

The Dillon & Ó Cróinín version of TYI, in my opinion, needs either years of studying Irish elsewhere, or else a great deal of hand-holding via teacher/tutor explanations.

quote:

this book now starts to make some sense to me

I don't think you should be so harsh in your evaluation. This book makes some sense immediately, even for the beginner. The problem is that the full sense of the book is obvious only to somebody who already knows the language.

After I have studied 20 chapters from Doyle's textbook (approx. half of this seminal book), the beginning of Dillon's book makes perfect sense to me. The reason I can't go beyond chapters 8-10 in Dillon is that I did not cover this material elsewhere. I am more than sure that after I complete Doyle's book I can easily make Dillon's book in couple months' time. Then it will be more exclamations of the type "hmm, that's interesting", "oh, never thought about that!" rather than the current "what?! why? didn't you tell that...", "how come... doesn't make any sense", "and what about? .. why this is not explained".

"Teach Yourself Irish" is definitely tough going. Other than Pimsleur and Gaeltalk, there is virtually nothing else out there (as far as learning materials go) for an English speaker who wants to learn Munster Irish. Doyle's book really does sound great but, alas, it is available only in Polish.

Without the luxury of a teacher or a less "compact" book, there is nothing else for a student of Munster Irish to do but forge ahead with TYI.

Wee-falorie-man,

How far did you manage to go with TYI? Just curious how much patience you have

Scríobh Róman:

I don't think you should be so harsh in your evaluation. This book makes some sense immediately, even for the beginner. The problem is that the full sense of the book is obvious only to somebody who already knows the language.

I should perhaps have been more specific -- grammatically I understood the first few chapters even on my first go 'round. But as the book progresses, more and more things are not explicitly demonstrated or explained, and these omissions multiply the learning difficulties exponentially.

Couple the above-mentioned structural shortcoming with the scarcity of the LP records (it took me over 20 years to obtain a set), and you might better understand why I had to shelve this course for many years. (Dillon's attempts at phonetic pronunciations were atrocious at best.)

It can be a very good resource, as has been pointed out previously -- but only with the help of a good tutor or a solid foundation in Irish via other materials.

Question about Pimsleur:

According to Amazon, an edition came out in 2001, but another edition is due out in February 2007.

I've ordered Learning Irish (by Micheal O'Siadhail), and am planning to order Buntus Cainte, as well -- thanks to all the comments in this forum thread.

So, the question is, would the Pimsleur course be a helpful addition to my plans? If so, should I wait until the new version comes out, or go with the familiar?

Thanks, again. Y'all are great!

Scríobh Susan:
According to Amazon, an edition came out in 2001, but another edition is due out in February 2007 ... If so, should I wait until the new version comes out, or go with the familiar?

This topic came up recently, Susan -- it seems Pimsleur will be adding 2 more lessons to the course for the next release, so if you're planning to buy it, I'd wait for the new one.

So, the question is, would the Pimsleur course be a helpful addition to my plans?

Do you have a preference in dialects at all? LI is in Connacht Irish, BC is "standard" (Caighdeán Oifigiúil) and Pimsleur is Munster Irish. While not incomprehensibly dissimilar, these 3 courses will present grammar, vocab. and pronunciation to you somewhat differently from one another (Pimsleur offers no written component, but the transcript & grammar notes can be found here: http://www.gaeilge.org/pimsleurtranscript.html ).

(Message edited by cionaodh on January 01, 2007)

Susan,

Just my two cents (again!) from a fellow beginner. I find that the Pimsleur method is by far the best method to learn conversational Irish. It's only flaw, and it's a big one, is that, contray to what Pimsleur claims, you will not have mastered the Irish language after learning the few dozen words that Pimsleur has to offer in the current 8 lesson package. What Pimsleur lacks in content they make up in their method of teaching. That is, phrases via interaction with the recordings are repeatedly learned by the student. At first you may find that you don't know the answer or how to respond in the interactive scenarios. But after a short time, you'll become proficient and have mastered some of the fundamentals of Irish. I only wish Pimsleur would be adding 200 more lessons instead of the 2 that will be released soon. If they added enough lessons their Irish-language package would be on par with their other language-study series.

So, my advice would be to buy them if you can afford it. They'll make an excellent addition to your learning library, and everyone knows that you need more than one book to adequately learn the language. And since I'm so inclined to think of ways for you to spend your money , perhaps you'll want to consider a dictionary, especially one that has the pronunciation for each headword. Foclóir Poca is fine for beginners and is available right here at Daltaí.

quote:

How far did you manage to go with TYI? Just curious how much patience you have

Dia is Muire dhuit, a Rómain,

I made it through the first ten lessons (Shoshana made it to Lesson 8), then I started all over again when I realized that I could only remember about a third of what I was taught. Now I'm on Lesson 9 (arís!) page 57 - Hah, it will take me at least a month to internalize what is on that one page! It is amazing to me, how Dillon and Ó Cróinín managed to cram the entire Irish language into 160 pages!

As for Susan's question: I thought Pimsleur was a GREAT way for me to start learning Irish. It will make you actually begin speaking Irish right away. It starts off with a simple dialog that is utterly incomprehensible to someone who is unfamiliar with the Irish language and by the end of the 30 minute lesson, you will understand every word they are saying! Besides forcing you to immediately speak Irish, it also permanently drums Irish phrases into your head. You have the "Official Wee Falorie Man Guarantee" that you will never forget anything that you've learnt from the Pimsleur course as long as you live.