anyone seen this series?

http://www.manchan.com/pb/wp_f4b21f7c/wp_f4b21f7c.html?0.3468578975403887

Níor léigh tú an leathanach ar fad:

Sundays, from January 7th, 9.30pm TG4, repeated Wednesdays 7.30pm.

ah...gabh mo leithscéal...níl tg4 agam mar sin rinne mé neamhiontas de an listing.

It looks like SOME people were able to understand.

Léigh an leathanach seo, O'D. Té sé i mBéarla:

http://www.manchan.com/pb/wp_f4b21f7c/wp_f4b21f7c.html?0.3468578975403887

Tuigeann tú Gaeilge shimplí, ceart?

The funny thing about this...

These videos are creating quite a stir not just in Ireland but all over the world. And he has already said he intends to keep doing this until he feels his point is made clear.

However, I and others have written about our experiences in Ireland and how we went there in hopes of being able to practice Irish with real Irish speakers only to find that most of the people either didn't know it at all, couldn't speak it enough to have a real conversation, or frankly just didn't want to chat with us in it.

Some of the responses we received were rather negative to the point one might think we were being accused of making it up. Yet, here we have on video proof of what happened to some of us. So for all those "nay" sayers out there, take a look if you haven't already and maybe you can understand our frustrations with the language and the Irish.

I think the greatest strength from these videos...aside from the humor...is that they really show how the average Irish person treats the language. I am sure, had he walked up to each of these people and asked them in English how the felt about the language, they would have given him the standard response "I love the language, I think it is valuable part of our culture, I think it should be used more, I think steps should be taken to promote it more...."

But he didn't. He walked up to them speaking the Irish language and look at the response he got from them...;0(

These were just a handful of average people...but I think we can see why the seeds of Irish aren't growing, the soil is too acidic there.

quote:

However, I and others have written about our experiences in Ireland and how we went there in hopes of being able to practice Irish with real Irish speakers only to find that most of the people either didn't know it at all, couldn't speak it enough to have a real conversation, or frankly just didn't want to chat with us in it

Is there some sort of conspiracy going on? It's common knowledge that Ireland is an English-speaking country -- if someone told you otherwise then they're lying. I'm born and raised in Dublin, and still living in Dublin. I would estimate that of all the Dublin people I have encountered in my life, approximately 7% can keep a conversation going in Irish.

If you want to speak Irish, go to one of the gaeltachts... I've never been, but I hear the people speak Irish there.

quote:

Some of the responses we received were rather negative to the point one might think we were being accused of making it up. Yet, here we have on video proof of what happened to some of us. So for all those "nay" sayers out there, take a look if you haven't already and maybe you can understand our frustrations with the language and the Irish.

How about I go over to the US and speak a Native Indian language to everyone?

quote:

I think the greatest strength from these videos...aside from the humor...is that they really show how the average Irish person treats the language.

Given that the average Irish person doesn't even speak the language, I wouldn't say that's of much consequence.

quote:

I am sure, had he walked up to each of these people and asked them in English how the felt about the language, they would have given him the standard response "I love the language, I think it is valuable part of our culture, I think it should be used more, I think steps should be taken to promote it more...."

And people say the same things about the environment, about charity, etc. but who bothers to get up off their arse?

quote:

But he didn't. He walked up to them speaking the Irish language and look at the response he got from them...;0(

He spoke an alien language to them... he may aswell have said "dib da da dum dee dee dam dam soo soo".

quote:

These were just a handful of average people...but I think we can see why the seeds of Irish aren't growing, the soil is too acidic there.

Good thing we have gaeltachts. To be honest I mostly don't give a crap about reinstating the Irish language as the language of the country... just so long as I get my own enjoyment out of it. Have you taken a look at the demographics which make up populations of Western culture in this age? A sizeable proportion of Ireland's population are under the influence of Marijuana most of the day, while another sizeable proportion don't work and receive benefit. There's a thousand things wrong with this country. We don't have gay marriage yet. We don't have Euthanasia. I can't count how many people have been shot dead in my county in the last month. Unless Western Culture is abandoned altogether, I think the only progressive route would be to do exactly what Holland does. Either that or migrate to a more pleasant culture. In short, I don't like Western Culture, and that last little part of Ireland that I like is to be found away from Dublin. I hope when I finally visit a Gaeltacht that I'll find a new love for my heritage, what's left of it in anyway.

I found it amusing. And telling.

"How about I go over to the US and speak a Native Indian language to everyone? "

more accurately, go to an indian reservation and speak the language...i think the result you'll find will be similar to the experiences with irish

A Fhear na mbrog,

You say that maybe if you went to the Gaeltacht then you might get reinviguerated about what little of your herritage is left. Well I don't think instituting the lack of rules in Holland will help with that ... at all.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hmmm...not to debate on Christmas but I have respond here.

First off yes...someone did tell me they spoke Irish in Ireland. Ireland!!! By declaring it an officail language that's kind of what they are saying...

And as for Native Americans and their language...there are only five Native American reservations with a sizable population. And you might be surprised at the number of speakers you will find. I can't speak for all of them, but I live just down the road from the largest rez in South Dakota, and I work with the reservation as well as with the LLC on the Lakota language revival efforts. The last time I checked 80% of the reservation could carry basic conversations in Lakota.

The largest rez in the country belongs to the Navajo were they can honestly boast over 100,000 native or fluent speakers which is something the whole of Ireland cannot.

And finally...there is a big difference between the Native languages in the US and the Irish language in Ireland. We don't claim any of these languages to the be the first official language of our country.

Why should I have to go to the Gaeltacht to hear Irish spoken? If the majority of the children have at least a year in it...which we know they have more...then I do expect a person to understand me when I say "Conas tá tú?" You can not tell me he was speaking an alien language to them...it was Irish.

Every country has these problems to some degree. And I know that speaking the language won't fix anything. But anyone who studies languages, knows that a language is one of the most powerful factors on a people. Why do you think outside forces worked so hard to destroy it? Language is a direct reflection of the soul of its people. Maybe...just maybe...an Irish language for an Irish people is the proverbial pebble in a pond. Is it so hard to believe that something as trivial as Irish could be the key to rekindling the fires inside the Irish people needed to overcome some of the more serious problems?

I know I'm an old dreamer...but I remember the Irish being a proud people. Is the Irish spirit which has made itself so famous truly gone?

Dúirt Gavin:

quote:

Why should I have to go to the Gaeltacht to hear Irish spoken? If the majority of the children have at least a year in it...which we know they have more...then I do expect a person to understand me when I say "Conas tá tú?" You can not tell me he was speaking an alien language to them...it was Irish.

In general, teachers in schools have poor Irish, so that doesn't help. In 15 or so years of schooling in Ireland, I had only two decent Irish speakers. Thankfully though, I had my second good Irish teacher for five years. Another thing though is that there's a lot of wasters nowadays, people who couldn't be bothered learning anything, let alone an entire new language. I sat in the same Irish classroom as many of my Irish peers, yet my own Irish far surpassed many of theirs.

quote:

I know I'm an old dreamer...but I remember the Irish being a proud people. Is the Irish spirit which has made itself so famous truly gone?

The year is 2006, I think you'll find Western Culture has polluted much of the English-speaking world.

Dúirt Ríona:

quote:

Well I don't think instituting the lack of rules in Holland will help with that ... at all.

Drugs and prostiution are illegal in Ireland, yet they're freely available and run by criminals making a wealthy living. Which alternative is more attractive do you think?

Maybe instead of just legalizing things, people need to stretch their little selfish minds just a tad and gain some morality. Now there's a concept for people of the Western world to digest.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

Maybe instead of just legalizing things, people need to stretch their little selfish minds just a tad and gain some morality.

Whose morality? Your morality? My morality? George Bush's morality? The Pope's morality? Most people who claim to preach morality are nothing more than insighters of hatred -- The Pope is blatantly homophobic and prejudiced against non-Christians, for instance. Believe it or not, there are both men and woman in our world perfectly happy working as prostitutes. There are people perfectly happy to smoke joint after joint, day after day. The only "one size fits all" kind of morality is the kind of morality that insists that we should be nice to each other and not harm or hurt each other. In this respect, one can easily argue that it is immoral to torture someone, or to enslave someone -- although who can argue that conscentual homosexual sex is immoral? Or that conscentual prostitution is immoral?

quote:

Now there's a concept for people of the Western world to digest.

Considering that a sizeable proportion of Western Culture continues to smoke cigararettes after they've been told 7 trillion times that they'll kill them. . . well, I doubt there's much hope.

Fear na mBróg...

I hope I didn't come across as attacking you, after I sent my last post I went back and read it over and felt it was a little more negative than I meant it to be.

You are absolutely correct, it is not fair to expect someone to remember information from any class, let alone some class they probably didn't like to begin with.

But I have a hard time understanding how such a simple and basic phrase such as "Conas tá tú..." can not be understood or even acknowledged? If there was a list of phrases that would most likely be associated with Irish, I would think this one would be at the top of the list.

I mean, it doesn't matter which dialect you use, this phrase is covered by them all. When you open an Irish phrase book this is one of the first ones seen, when you open a Irish travel book and turn to the language portion this is what one sees, and when you buy an Irish language course this is one of the first things taught. And I know it is being taught in the school systems...

But for some reason, there are Irish people out there who do not know it?

I am like you in that I really don't care what the Irish decide to do with Irish. They can save it, or they can end it. It really doesn't matter that much to me because I am going to learn for my pleasure anyway.

However, having said that, I think that if Ireland rolls over and lets the language go it will be the saddest tragedy to hit Ireland. All the horrible things that have happened to Ireland in her history will be nothing compared to the loss of the last cultural thread of Ireland. And that is exactly what the language is, it is the final connection to the Ireland that was. The one on the postcards, the one that brings in the tourists, the one that the outside world thinks of when they hear the words Ireland and Irish spoken.

I am not saying that what will be left after the loss is a bad thing...but will it really be Irish? Or will it be something different?

Where can I find the Irish lyrics of this "filthiest Irish song in the world" Manchán was singing?
Just to improve my Irish, of course.
English is here: http://irishmedia.blogspot.com/2006/11/filthiest-irish-song-in-world.html

Slán
Lars

quote:

Where can I find the Irish lyrics of this "filthiest Irish song in the world" Manchán was singing?

I don't think it will be too difficult to transcribe especially with the English text in front of you. Without any special effort I heard him repeating "ar an tsráid" (damn Conamara!), "buailfimid craiceann" and the likes.

A Fhear na mbrog,

At least we can agree that smoking makes no sense since everyone knows it is bad for them. On the other things we'll apparently just have to agree to disagree I suspect.

I hope your Christmas was very nice and grand.

Beir bua agus beannacht

"I know that speaking the language won't fix anything. "

well, if the problem is defined (as it is most frequently) as people not speaking the language in their everyday lives, then it *is* the fix...

No that's not what I meant...

I was trying to say to Fear na mBróg who brought up a number of current social problems facing Ireland that speaking Irish won't fix them, however, it might be an empowering factor to help a societal step in correcting them...

A long shot I know...but stranger things have happened. It is amazing what a people can do when they are unified and inspired by a common core of cultural identity and societal purpose.

How did this thread veer from talking about the No Béarla YouTube video onto a condemnation of Western Civilization? This is Christmas and I don't think it is at all an appropriate time for condemning the Pope for being "homophobic". This is a complex subject, and raising it this way totally lacks sensitivity at a time when all religious leaders are giving sermons stressing the need for love and understanding. How can the Pope be prejudiced against non-Christians? It is his role to stick up for Christianity and convert the non-Christians, so you can hardly expect him to say anything that negates his Church, can you? This subject is not exactly on-topic on Daltaí.

I ended my end of it peacefully enough to be sure.

I watched the utub (whatever it is called) version of it and I wnated more. Is there any place, apart from TG4 whare I could watch more of it, particularly episode one with general reactions etc.

Beir bua agus beannacht

What exactly was Manchan trying to prove? That people in Ireland are basically dishonest in their approach to Irish? That, surely, is glaringly obvious without resorting to showmanship or mocking tactics.

Was he trying to shock people into feeling guilty about their neglect of Irish? I don't think such a ploy would even bother most.

Irish has been taught in Irish schools since independence in 1922. That's over 80 years ago. Still the language has continued to decline. The teaching has failed miserably. Rather the imposition of corporal punishment fuelled a hatred. I feel it would be more to the point to try to understand why there is such an ongoing antipathy when the cruelty of the past is long since abandoned, and to find out how this could be turned around. People's responses to questions about their knowledge of Irish are usually lies that are conditioned into the Irish psyche - I love Irish, but it's too difficult; or I do speak some Irish - until it's put to the test. The cúpla focal, followed by a hasty retreat into English is a standard indicator of the hypocrisy of it all. It's one of the hallmarks of certain politicians. Indeed, they should be leading the way towards the restoration of Irish, and their strategies and Statements ring hollow because they are so incapable of doing what they want others to do. They should be setting the headlines. Instead, they are no better than anyone else. (There are notable exceptions, of course.) Perhaps if Irish were made the required language of the Dáil some sincerity might begin to creep back... Pie in the sky?

It seems obvious to me that Ireland is in denial: it either hates, or is incapable of learning, its historical language. But it won't admit this. It didn't take a TV programme to ascertain that. Nor do I think that singing filth on the streets of Galway achieves anything. If it meant anything, then Manchan should have been arrested and jailed, but the Garda Síochána, if any officer turned up, could not even have been aware that there was a breach of the peace going on under his/her nose.

Stick to you travel programmes, Manchan. They're great. This venture seems a bit crass.

Please stay on topic or this thread will be closed.

Caoimhín

I don't think he was trying to mock or shock people...I think he was trying to put a humorous spin on a serious issue. And it seems to be working. More people are watching his videos.

There is a great part in the first video where he is talking about the Irish language in Dublin to a lady on the radio. What does he say, "I am just trying to be objective...I live my life to Irish, I am trying to go out on the street and speak Irish. I have spent my life through Irish. The reason for this is because the people of Ireland, the people of Dublin have decided, have chosen to turn their backs on Irish and I will not judge them. If they want to do that, that's fine, but lets just except the fact that Irish is dead in Dublin."

The lady fires back with "...In my opinion, anyone I meet, anytime I am in a shop, I was in (#######) today and a lady came up to me and said 'are you speaking Irish, my god that's fantastic, I wish I did to."

The problem is that radio segment continued on but was cut short for the video. What happened afterwards is he says, "...that's the problem. She wants to, but doesn't. She is the only person stopping herself from doing it. If she really wanted to, she could be speaking the language right now, the problem is that deep down inside she must not really want to or she would be. And that's happening in Dublin and all of Ireland. Wanting to save a life won't stop a person from drowning..."

Now the clip which is causing the most trouble is the "song clip." For Pangor Dubh who made the comment that he should have been arrested...for what? Cursing? For singing in public? For singing in Irish? For singing in Irish in public? What was his crime? If any of these were a arrestable offenses....the whole of Ireland would be in jail!

As for the singing of filth on the streets of Galway...have you ever stopped and really listened to some of the street perfomences in English. Not only do they swear a lot, but a lot of the music is racial, anti-governmental, sexual in nature, and just plain rude somtimes but it gets passed off as artistic expression. But hey at least they are in English right?

I like what he is doing. I think he should continue. And I look forward to next series of videos.

A Phangar dubh a chara,

As inappropriate as his songs may have been, the point was to show that noone had any idea and thus he could essentially get away with anything in the National language which, unfortunately, noone seems to understand. I think he chose to sing nasty songs because it would get people's attention if they understood ... but noone did.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Riona, that was exactly my point. And I developed it by saying that even if one of the Garda Síochána were there, I doubted they would have understood, although Irish used to be a requirement for membership of that force, I believe.

Gavin, I did mention 'breach of the peace'. Perhaps conduct likely to lead to a breach of the peace would have been more accurate. It's a very flexible 'crime' and gives policing substantial muscle in hazy situations. I ws not having a go a Manchan, though. I like his other work, but one this seems an execise in proving the obvious.

True a chara...

I think, the thing to take from his clip wasn't that his lyrics where rather odd and no one caught them...

Rather...I think we should be worring about the fact that he was in Galway, the one major city that given its location in relation to the Gaeltacht, should have had the greatest potential for him finding someone on the streets to converse with, and in the case of his singing...notice his song!!!

At least he gave some glimmer of hope as he showed various people those pictures and they told him what they were in Irish. Some had a little trouble, but a few of them seemed to have a good knowledge of the words.

quote:

A Phangar dubh a chara

quote:

For Pangor Dubh who made the comment

Pangur Dubh bocht! Níl éinne sásta leis an dóigh a scríobhann sé a ainm féin. This reminds me of the Irish manuscripts, where the same name can be spelled six different ways in the same text. Mar shampla: Nera, Nero, Neru, Neuro, Nerai, Neroi (ó "Echtrae Nerai" sa lámhscríbhinn Egerton 1782, Fo. 71 b).

quote:

Pangur Dubh bocht!

How about "An dreoilín bocht!" (in keeping with the season)

I'm slightly suspicious of the methodology in this series.

For example, he managed to get himself thrown out of a pub in Nassau Street.

I regularly (about once a fortnight) go drinking in another pub in Duke Street with a group of Irish speaking friends. After a couple of months almost all the Irish bar staff were taking our orders in Irish - spontaneously.

There tend to be two camps in the debate on Irish - "The end of the language is nigh" school and the "Isn't everything wonderful" school.

Personally, I don't have a lot of time for either school; but I have a lot of respect for the people who go out and do something, whether in the Gaeltacht or outside it. They tend not to make too much noise about it either.

A Dhennis,

má fheiceann tú sa bhfoclóir, feicfidh tú nach bhfuil mórán focal faoin litir P. Dúradh liom uair éigin (Ní cuimhin liom cathain) gur comhartha é seo nár baineadh úsáid aisti, .i. an litir úd, go minic fadó fadó. Dá bhrí sin, duradh, seans maith nach focal fíor-Ghaelach Pangur ar chor ar bith! B'fhéidir gur P vs Q atá i gceist anseo - Prydain vs Eriu arís. Ach os tusa fons sapientiae i rudaí mar seo, ba mhór liom do thuairim faoi.

Agus ar eagla go mbeadh an scéal casta, lig dom é a chur níos mó trína chêile:

Mise Pangur an cat,
Luchtiarna an tigh,
Muna mbíonn mé amuigh,
Bím istigh.

Seilgim na lucha
Le crúb géar mar chorrán,
Ach déanaim cúis leis na Francaigh,
Anseo sa Rousillon.

Is cat an-aineolach mé,
Dar le Dennis, an saoi;
Ní scríobhaim m'ainm,
Ní féidir liom guí.

Ach tá cara sár-naofa 'gam,
Manchan gan locht,
Agus déanfaidh sin 'n gnó
Do Phangur Dubh bocht.

With apologies to Raifteirí, an anonymous monk whose manuscript languishes in Mittel Europa, and to all sensitive poets, who probably should never read such stuff anyway. I should not forget fíor-Ghaeilgeoirí either, who may be outraged by my far from humble efforts.

Are you still there Man(a)chan?

Tá sé ina liath!

Mantion probably went to pubs that he figured would not have Irish-speaking staff because, after all, this is a television program and it wouldn't get high ratings if he just chilled out and enjoyed himself in a pub whare everyone understood him. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

Dá bhrí sin, duradh, seans maith nach focal fíor-Ghaelach Pangur ar chor ar bith!

Deirtear gur ón bhfocal Breatnaise "pannwr" a tháinig sé, focal a chiallaíonn fuller nó "úcaire". Bhain na húcairí úsáid as borrchré (nó cré an úcaire, fuller's earth), púdar atá bán, agus bhídís bán freisin dá bharr le linn a gcuid oibre. Ainm oiriúnach do chat bán mar sin é!

Well I think objectively it's a good thing that he's raised the debate.
Aonghus pointed out two camps which I don't like either, the complete haters of the language who just never took to it and the Isn't it wonderful.
Now I don't mind per se the complete haters of the language as they are entitled to dislike it but I can not stand the Isn't it wonderful camp. They say they love the language and will boast and make various claims about it but when it truly comes down to it, they couldn't be bothered attempting to learn it or embrace it at all.
We had a great provocative professor in College last term who said that the Irish language was being destroyed in education. At the onset I was offended but as I listened to him more and more I agreed. He said that he lives in Kerry for alot of the year and happens to offer lifts to trainee teachers that are in the Gaeltacht. Cleverly he pretends to know only Irish. Most of these teachers that will pass on the language to our youth, haven't even a basic grasp of the language. One of the female members of our tutorial got very insulted and claimed that he was wrong that it totally thriving and that 'like at the All Ireland finals the captains make speeches in Irish.'

Look at the Irish politicians in the past, he pointed out to us, very few if any had decent Irish. Charlie Haughey apparently pronounced Fianna Fáil Fianna Fall.
De Valera named the Parliament of Ireland An Dáil but there already was a word existing in the language for Parliament- Parlaimint.

Similiarly to Aonghus, I admire anyone who goes out and does something for the language but there is this ridiculous faux-Patriotism floating around about the Irish Language.

(Message edited by podsers on December 27, 2006)

Wee falorie man, Cat ina éan? Ba dheacair dhom sin. Ach éan insan gcat.....dáiríre, sin scéal blasta eile. :)




"there is this ridiculous faux-Patriotism floating around about the Irish Language. "

Amen, Podsers, although perhaps you are being just a tad too harsh with the 'faux'. As a kind of fly on the wall, I have heard some efforts on the part of Irish people on holiday in these parts and they were ludicrous rather than laudable. Why? Well, I'm not saying that people shouldn't try, but why does it require abroad to make the effort. That's where it becomes ludicrous. It seems that some people, as soon as they leave Irish shores are engulfed with a desire to speak Irish. The problem is that they don't use it in Ireland at all, and the result on this end (.i. abroad) is grim. If only the same impulse were present in Ireland, then the whole nation would be Irish-speaking by now. I can't explain it, but it is perhaps a misguided patriotism that fails to exercise itself where it is most needed - at home. Or perhaps it is the old inferiority surfacing when faced with 70 million French who chatter away merrily, watch TV, have quarrels, whisper sweet nothings etc in their own language, not a borrowed one. Whatever, I think/hope the impulse to speak Irish in these circumstances is sincere enough.

Is there anything that could be done to stimulate such an impulse within Ireland? Something to raise that patriotic need that comes through abroad? Perhaps this is another thread altogether.

A Dhennis, GRMMA!

Ach is Pangur DUBH mise. Mínigh dhom é sin, má'a mian leat! :-) Cinnte mar sin, d'fhéadfaí Pannwr Du a ghlaoch orm. Ach ní bheinn sásta le sin. Ní bheinn sásta le Pannwr Gwynn ach oiread.

Tá an fhreagra símplí go leor, áfach. Bhí an t-ainm Pangur Bán gafa nuair a thuirling mé anseo. Mar sin thogh mé an leasainm atá agam, agus tá mé tagtha ar an tuairim go n-oireann sé go mór liom.

Just to clarify - I was actually talking about those who speak Irish.

The debate in English is another kettle of fish.

Sorry Aonghus interpreted do phointí i slí eile!:)
Brón orm

An rud is mó a chuir as domsa ná "an t-amhrán". Ní amhrán ar aon chor é, ach cúpla abairt graosta á rá i ndiadh a chéile gan tiúin ná fonn, i nglór a chuirfeadh náire ar phréachán. I bhfocail eile, ní raibh sé cliste ná greannmhair ná ealaíonta. Pathetic.

ag lorg gníomh a bhí sé. Tá amhras ormsa gur aithin aoinne a thuig na focail an tamhránaí, agus go ndeara siad neamhaird dá réir ar a phleidhcíocht.

Podsers there was also a name for the country - Eire not "Fáil."

DeV wasn't a fan of Béarlachas ;)

I like what he's doing with this, the programme should make people think, reflect and perhaps do something with their view..

if you haven't noticed native american language was never an offical language of the US and if you studied US history you would know that the US killed and destroyed everything Indian,until recently, so you can't compare native american language to gaeilge in Ireleand.

As I said before, I have been working with the Lakhota language revival for a few years now...and I can understand how the Irish may be feeling on both sides of the line.

And for those of you who have been wondering where I come off always saying the things I do...it is because believe it or not, I have been neck deep in language revival efforts most of my life. I have seen things work, and I have seen things not work...and right now the Lakhota language is slowing gaining speed when it was in a much worse condition than Irish is now. So I know Irish has the chance to turn around...it doesn't have to become a second language that is kept around for the tourists and scholars.

The parallels between the Irish revival efforts and the Lakhota efforts are incredible. If you are bored, take a look!!!

Also, the only reason I had to defend the Native languages of the United States is because the statement was "How about I go over to the US and speak a Native Indian language to everyone?" Followed by the statement..."go to an indian reservation and speak the language...i think the result you'll find will be similar to the experiences with irish..."

This would have been a OK, however, it was flawed on several levels. One, you would be asking people who have no grounds for speaking a Native language to do so...it would be like expecting someone from Japan to understand someone speaking Zulu with no education in it. Two, if you were to ask Native Americans to understand you, then you would first have to be speaking their Native language to be able to compare the situation...you have to remember the current estimation is there were over 1,000 different Native languages being spoke at the time of colonization. And finally, if you look at the number of reservations with a sizable population...the numbers of people who are conversational in their native langauges puts Ireland to shame...

So what does this have to do with "No Béarla?"

Just about everyone in Ireland has years of education in the language...I can understand a person not being able to speak/read/write/understand the language...I really can. However, what I can't understand is how he greeted people with some of the most basic of phrases that should have been hammered into them from their years of Irish education...and a good majority of them acted as if they have never heard the language before?

If anything, I think the "No Béarla" clips are evidence that the Irish revival is failing and needs serious work.

A Ghavin a chara,

That is so neat that you are helping the Lakota language cause. I think it is a beautiful language and it is the only language that my dad will watch movies with and read subtitles for. At least as far as I know. He normally dislikes movies with lots of subtitles but he plods through those. :) I know how to say buffalo but that is it. :)

You have really good points above and I think maybe people have underestimated you and your knowledge of revival techniques.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Thank you Riona...

I am not now, or was I then, trying to toot my proverbial horn. I was just trying to say that I do understand the ups and downs of language revival efforts.

One of the most important things that I come to accept as truth is that for all my doing...me being an outsider doesn't help anything. I can suggest, critique, and motivate if need be...but the salvation of the language has to come from the Irish themselves. Also, I think things like "No Béarla" are great because it is forcing people (especially the Irish) to accept that they have to take a side on the language. The "fence riding" has run its course, and now they have to decide if they are going to actually start supporting the lanuage...or kill it. Because when it comes right down to it, only they have the power to decide the fate of language.

And I think that is what Manchán Magan is trying to do...we can evaluate his strategy all day long...and whether we agree with him or not, the one thing that we cannot do is deny the fact that he is trying to do something.

Good man, Gavin. I studied Lakhota for a couple of years with Robert Bunge at USD back in the late 80's. Great language, gives a real insight into the people. I always called it noun-poor and verb-rich, which makes sense when you're talking about people that were nomadic!

Unfortunately my studies haven't allowed me much time for Irish or Lakhota the past couple of years, but in due time I plan to revisit them both.

Riona, I think you probably know the word for a bull bison (tatanka), but there is no word that categorizes all bison, at least as far as I know.

Tatanka Iyotake = Sitting Bull (actually would be better translated as "Guarding Bull", as he watched over his people as a bull bison would watch over his herd)

Your Neighbor from South Dakota,

Thezi Tanka

Ta an ceart agat, that is the word I know along with anyone else who's watched Dances With Wolves and Into The West.

Beir bua agus beannacht

This is a special request to discuss a non-Irish language topic and I hope permission is granted.

Scríobh Thezi Tanka: Riona, I think you probably know the word for a bull bison (tatanka), but there is no word that categorizes all bison, at least as far as I know.

A Thezi Tanka, please excuse my ignorance, but I'm surprised that the Lakhota people would not have a word for the plural of tatanka. Is it possible that the one word tatanka is used for both singular and plural form of the animal, similar to how bison can mean one or many, and like deer can mean one or many?

I also knew the word tatanka from the movie Dances with Wolves. I've only seen the movie like a dozen times and look forward to seeing it again soon. I thought it gave me an insight into the lives of the Lakhota and how rich of a culture they have.

If you don't mind me asking, I see that your name has tanka in it. Is there any relation to tanka and tatanka?

P.S. My pseudonym for today was the closest I could come to bison, which I couldn't find in any dictionary.

MLBuabhall, good questions from you. What I meant to say to Riona is that there is no one word known to me to mean a generic bison. There's tatanka for bull bison, pte for cow bison, and also a word for bison calf that escapes me at the moment, but no word to describe a bison regardless of sex or age

Good observation about my name, but actually thezi tanka means "big belly" (tanka meaning "big"). Ha ha! Good reminder for me to get serious about going on a diet. They often called the Lakhota elders this name because once they got a little older and less active their bellies grew. :-)

I hope this answers your questions.

Thezi Tanka

There's a great problem about reintroducing Gaeilge in the whole of Ireland. First of all, English is being a very useful language these days, so lots of people in Ireland feel that learning Irish (let alone bringing their children up through Irish) is quite useless, though they might claim to love and respect the language of their (often remote) ancestors.
Secondly, most people probably think that reinstituting Irish as the spoken language of the whole country is actually improbable though it's frequently mentioned.
And finally, which is probably the most important reason, English speaking Irish people love the English language, it is their language, the one through which they were brought up, in which they have been talking to their family and friends, and which has been accompanying them during their life. That's the point. They don't want to give it up. The world of Gaeilge is another world - they may claim they wish they could speak the language (as their mother tongue, but in that case it'd present to them what English does), it's just another, irreal world. That's sad, but that's how it is.
Daithí

a Mhic Léinn na mBuabhall,

de réir focal.ie, is Mac Léinn na mBíosún ó cheart thú!

http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=bison

Of course, I'm not pessimistic, in spite of what I've written above. I'm still trying to keep Irish alive, and I know a lot of other people are too. Sin é an rud is tábhachtaí, dar liom.
Beirigí bua agus beannacht
Daithí

Go raibh maith agat a Aonghuis,

An dteastaonn uaim úsáid an focal Meiriceánach freisin? Mar sin, Mac Léinn Bíosún Meiriceánach?

Ceist eile: When I use the definite article, I know that I need to eclipse the first letter of the possesive plural noun. But, if I'm not using the definite article, mar shampla, Student of Bisons, do I need to eclipse the first letter of the possesive plural noun?

FRC-GRMA

Ceist do na gramadoirí san.

Ach ní dóigh liom é.

Ós rud é go bhfuil Bíosún Eorpach ann, is dócha go bhfuil an Meiriceánach de dhíth.

http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Bison_bonasus.html

Gavin,
any tips for approaching another member of your nationality who happens to speak another language?

Sorry...I am just now catching up with the tread...

BRN, I am not sure I understand your question? What do you mean by "approaching a member of my nationality who happens to speak another language?" Are you asking me how would I approach someone who doesn't speak English? Or are you asking me how would I approach trying to get someone who doesn't speak English to learn? Or are you asking me how would I react if someone like Manchán Magan came out to me speaking another language?

Also...a side note about the plural of the word tatanka...in most Siouan languages nouns are made plural in the verb...minus Omaha/Ponca which is just insane. If you are just talking about buffalo in gerneral, then the most common thing I have seen is to address them as tatanka oyate which means the buffalo nation/people. All living creatures were believed to be actual people belonging to their respective nations.

I'll take the bait, BRN.

If I came across another American who did not speak English, I would try my damnedest with pantomime, semaphore, sign language, morse code, and psychism if need be to make myself understood to them and vice versa.

But at the end of the day, if such a person couldn't understand written or spoken American English, there's little I can do. It's the common tongue here, if not the "first, official language" of our country.

Actually, I was more asking how do ye, when in a reservation go up to people in a lingusitic mode, and talk to them normally.

I dont see Gaeltacht people as different, apart from some minor cultural and more major speech differences. I can't just walk up to someone and interrogate them.

So take it easy the best way?

Freagra do Mhac Léinn (na m)Bíosún

If you don't use the definite article you don't eclipse the noun in the genitive plural because urú is actually triggered by the article in that case. As well as séimhiú in the genitive singular of masculine nouns, nominative sg. of feminines etc.
However I'm not sure if the possesor noun has to be lenited after a feminine one, e.g. daughter of bisons - iníon bhiosún??

Daithí

I do ask myself the same. In 'Oíche Shamaín' the second is lenited to show the connection between both, but I think this is to show it is a compound.

About you example, níl a fhios agam

I also wonder if the noun that functions as the object of a feminine verbal noun has to be lenited - in Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish there are examples like ag baint fhéir, ag baint fhataí, but also ag cur fhataí (and cur is masculine, dar liomsa)?!
Daithí

Since you are doing a sociological research project you have to tell them that because you can't publish any results without concent, or at least you are not suppose to. Just be very nice and agreeable and people, especially the older ones, will be willing to help you.

Now if you were talking to someone with limited English (Riona would be excited) then you might approach the whole thing differently but be very kind patient and overall respectful. I doubt that you'll find any in this particular project of yours but you know if you do I want to know.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I see...you were asking me if I take a Manchán Magan approach to people when I visit the rez.

And the answer is yes and no. I do hope to engage in a small conversation everytime I go there, but I do not usually try to start the conversations. As a "white man" it is best to know your place there, and even more important where to pick your battles.

That is one thing he did not do very well in the video clips...he just assumed that the person walking down the street would understand him to some degree.

When I go there, I know there are places and groups of people that are more likely to speak with me...note I said speak with me...most of them can speak the language, but they shy off with outsiders. Elders and the elderly are a given, they want more than anything to share and spread their language...children under the age of 15 are usually very talkative and easeir to understand because they haven't developed the fast speech yet. (Lakhota speakers know what I am talking about here) Ceremonies, schools, stores, banks, and of course tourist places are givens for hearing the language being spoken.

But as for people 20-40...I wouldn't expect them to be able to understand me if I just stopped them in the street and started talking to them in fast speech. They haven't had any contact with the language outside of their elders and the ceremonies. They know basic words and maybe some basic phrases...but they haven't had it in school or any serious exposure to it.

Having said that...I think it will be different in a decade or so because the students who are in the Lakhota language only schools will be the age...only time will tell.

Also, I do not expect them to ever be Lakhota only speakers...that is an unrealistic dream. But I do feel that they will be truly bilingual. Which will free them to speak whatever language they want to.

I had to chuckle when reading your post, Gavin. I agree completely with you. I'm of the opinion that if some wasicu tried the Manchán Magan approach on the rez they'd get beaten up or worse.

Thezi Tanka

A BhRN,
By Shamaín you mean Shamhain, or Shamhna (gen.sg.)??

I don't think that oíche Shamhna is a compound. It's rather a phrase in which Samhain appears to be in the so-called partitive genitive case (the night is a part of Samhain). If I'm right then the genitive nouns indeed are lenited after feminines, just like adjectives.
Anyway, Grma as d'fhreagra

Daithí

Sorry...I forgot to answer the second part...

When you approach people, remember you are meeting them as a person, not as a person who might speak a language you are studying.

When you get these people to start up a conversation, they will more than likely speak to you in English...the key is to get to turn it into Irish if it is even going to be possible with the person in the first place.

Topics that will most likely lead to the switch to Irish:

Why you came to the Gaeltacht, or do you speak Irish...

Careful these two might make them feel like a specimen under the microscope.

Talk about the local area...

People love to talk about their homes, saying something like I noticed some of the signs here are in Irish?

Talk about the local people...

I heard some of the people here speaking Irish, does that happen a lot here?

Gaeltacht in general...

So what's it like living in the Gaeltacht? Will I not speaking Irish have trouble getting around here?

The idea is to get them comfortable with talking with you. If they are not, you won't be haveing a very long conversation, and you can kiss your Irish conversations goodbye. Remember to pick your battles...there are places and groups that are more likely to be helpful.

Thezi Tanka...

In my "dumber days" as I like to call them...I had a rather less than friendly encouter at one of the local bars just outside of the rez.

It seems that if you know a person's culture better than they do...it might not be in your best interest to tell them so after they have had a few drinks on a hot day...

In fact, I am surprized Manchán didn't have similar responses...

Soory, 'Oíche Shamhna', of course. Cúl an bháid 'back of the boat'. I'm not sure how natives used to analyse Samhan in medievel times. So it was seen as a thing, so 'night of the Samhan' was part of the period of Samhan?

I'm going to compare a strong and weak area -Bloodyforeland with Mayo. I'd try An Rinn for the weak one, but the College is closed now. Belfast is a reconstructed area, so it has greater /more artifical prestige, which would skew the results.

Thanks for the tips.

A Dhaithí, go raibh maith agat as do fhreagra thuas. I've added the info to my Yahoo groups site. I have plenty of books on Irish grammar, etc, but still haven't found a good source that will explain the formation of the genitive, for indefinite singular and plural nouns, and definite singular and plural nouns. I like you remark about the definite article triggering eclipsis; that'll help me remember.

A Mhac Léinn na Gaeilge,
All initial mutations in Irish are in all cases triggered by a preceding word. So, the only things you've got to learn is what happens at the end of a word, e.g.

Nsg bróg
Gsg bróige
Dsg bróig

Npl bróga
Gpl bróg
Dpl brógaibh

This is different for each group of nouns (so-called declensions).

The other thing is what happens at the beginning of a word - which is identical for all nouns:

masculine
Nsg an no change/t-vowel
Gsg an lenition/t+s...

feminine
Nsg an lenition/t+s...
Gsg na no change/h+vowel

both
Npl na no change/h+vowel
Gpl na eclipse/n+vowel

As for the initial changes in dative, they depend on the prepositions you use.

When there's no article, as I've already said, the first consonant might be lenited after a feminine noun (but only if the two nouns constitute a phrase, which happens only when the second noun is genitive, as far as I know).

Daithí

BRN...

Something I have read about the Belfast Irish is that for the most part they are sticking with the Irish of southern Donegal. Of course they will modify it accordingly over time...but right now with exception to their accent...it is going to be very similar.

For instance, my wife comes from Derry. She went to Queen's were she really learned to speak the language...all of her teachers were from Donegal.

If you are just interested in northern dialects in general, you might be able to kill two birds with one stone by going to Donegal where there are more native speakers anyway.

Gavin,
actually I cannot do this on linguistic grounds at all -I must find an 'angle' that allows for social and psychological aspects to be measured. Why one area has kept Irish (maybe the lady's pride and defensivness on the phone is a symptom of this) while another abandoned it is a usuable one.

I wish to switch to linguistics, so I need a porfolio of work in my favour, as otherwise no university would have grounds for accepting me to such a course.

"...but right now with exception to their accent...it is going to be very similar."

From the point of view of the contrast it would might do as the positive pole, but there is so much energy there wrapped up in growing the language that it is a whole different dynamic to a place that has spoken irish for 2000+ years perhaps.

Regarding the sppech of west belfast, I'd imagine a) there is a lot more speakers there than in Gleann Cholm Chille b) all prior evidence of learner irish in Ireland is that it diverges radically from its supposed Gaeltacht model, c) the one in-depth study of their Irish by Gabriel Maguire details how different it is, d) it is not about accent, one can hear the lack of broad/slender distinction, pronounciation of orthographic glides as vowels, use of 'agus' ad nauseum rather than 'is' to name but three parts

They have pride in even broken Irish, where old natives might have shame in beautiful Irish. I'm not disagreeing or agreeing on its been different to south Donegal irish as all evidence I've seen tells it to be different, and that is what they, as speakers, present, not my fabrication. Currently, I stand by saying *to the degree I can attest* it is different. You also have some people who are using recordings of supposed Antrim Irish from the glens highlands there, but I hear the exact last fellow was from Donegal! Maybe this muddies things, but I would not go so far as to credit them with a perfect resurection

Alt le Manchán san Irish Times inniu

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=1605&viewby=date

quote:

There is something absurd and rather tragic about setting out on a journey around a country, knowing that if you speak the language of that country you will not be understood. It is even more absurd when the country is your native one and you are speaking its native language.

quote:

I might have been tempted to give up the journey entirely had it not been for something that happened during the radio phone-in. I was rapidly approaching a point of despair when some mothers began to ring in. They had no Irish, but they had been asked by their children to phone. There was something they wanted to say and they were demanding their parents get in touch. When the children came on the line I found they spoke clear and fluent Irish in a new and modern urban dialect. They told me how they spoke the language all the time, as did all their friends. They loved it, and they were outraged that I could suggest it was dead. These were the children of the new Gaelscoileanna, and were burdened with none of the sense of inferiority that had been instilled in the rest of us.

"the children came on the line I found they spoke clear and fluent Irish in a new and modern urban dialect."

"the ancient pronunciations and syntax in accordance with the latest styles of Buffy-speak and Londonstani slang."

Gayilga pidjon, innit?

Go raibh maith agat, a Aonghus. Ba mhaith liom ag léamh na foclóir seo scríofa le Manchán san Irish Times. Scríobh mé litir do Manchán Mangan faoi Nó Béarla agus scríobh sé litir dom. Is maith liom é agus a chlár.

(Thanks, Aonghus. I liked reading these words written by Manchán in the Irish Times. I wrote a letter to Manchán Mangan about Nó Béarla and he wrote a letter to me. I like him and his program.)

quote:

"the ancient pronunciations and syntax in accordance with the latest styles of Buffy-speak and Londonstani slang."

Sounds similar to what has happened to every extant language over the course of history - they change, sometimes in small ways and sometimes in big ways, and sometimes to the chagrin of die-hard traditionalists.

Ain't in the truth? (Cowardly Lion...Wizard of OZ)

Tá súil agam nach gcuireann sé as duit, a Mhaidhc, má leasaim de bheagán an méid a scríobh tú

Ba mhaith liom ag léamh na foclóir seo scríofa le Manchán san Irish Times.

recte:

Thaithin sé liom na focail seo a scríobh Manchán san Irish Times a léamh

foclóir = dictionary, vocabulary

"Sounds similar to what has happened to every extant language over the course of history - they change, sometimes in small ways and sometimes in big ways, and sometimes to the chagrin of die-hard traditionalists."

Listen, this is the urban generation who were brought up speaking -English- as a second language (polished English, like kids of diplomats). I would hazard a guess that the huge increase in slang in the qout-unquote 'posh' and 'weel healed' areas (whereever they are), come about from the lack of difference between formal and informal modes of speech that kids are reacting to. We cant all be on stage our whole lives, nor be formal to everyone.

For some of them, Irish must be a boon -no more prescriptive grammar, especially as the Irish teachers don't know what grammar is anyway.

The big crux is lack of native speaker demographic. Native couples need to be making babies, and in a context where Irish is the language of love AND business AND culture AND geography. Till that happens dont credit little Fiachra and miny Cliodhnadh with saving a language. It's just more 'subversive' use of irish to act-out against a control figure.

Notice none of them will read or reply to this as 'dad' or 'mom' dont come here

A Aonghuis, Is maith liom an sceil le Mantion. Go raibh maith agat.

I very very much want to see this program now. Any chance it will come out on DVD? Although even if it did I probably wouldn't be able to get a hold of it. :(

I think that all languages change and that is just what happens. The trouble with Irish is that if it changes too much in the direction that it has been changing of late it may endup becoming an English Irish pigeon someday as BRN pointed out, and I know that none of us want that at all.

Ta an ceart ag BRN that speakers of Irish must make sure to bring up their children with Irish, it being the best way to ensure that they learn it well and correctly.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

Is maith liom an sceil le Mantion.

Is maith liomsa an scéal freisin.

Ceist agam ort, Ríona: Why Mantion? His name is Manchán, an old and now rather unusual name that means "little monk". manach (monk) + -án (diminutive) = manchán

Oops, I saw someone else write it wrong once and it stuck wrong on me. I did think it was weird to spell it like the large house. :) but if you see something one way once it seems to remain.

Ta bron orm GRMA for correcting me so I don't do it again,

(aifealtas)

Beir bua agus b eannacht

Listen, this is the urban generation......

Sharon Ní Bheoláin, the narrator for the TV/DVD series Turas Teanga, does a good job convincing viewers that people from urban areas, like Sharon herself who was born and raised in Dublin, can converse with native-Irish speakers from all ALL OVER IRELAND. She visits with people from all walks of life, who speak different Irish dialects. I think it's wonderful that there is an urban dialect, if that's what you want to call it. It's wonderful because it will be part of the solution to restoring Irish to the prestige it once had thoughout all of Ireland. Perhaps some of the urban dialect speakers may not have perfect command of every velar-fricative, etc., but is that really the point of the Irish language. Here in the U.S., we must have dozens of different speech patterns. I'm from New Joisey, for example, but have no problem with understanding someone from any other part of the country. Wouldn't this be true of the so-called urban dialect? Isn't it proved by folks like Sharon Ní Bheoláin and the "little Fiachras and miny Cliodhnadhs?"

quote:

Notice none of them will read or reply to this as 'dad' or 'mom' dont come here

.

The probably don't need to come here because they already know more Irish than most of us here anyway.

Is daid beirt páiste gaelscoile mise!

Féach; tá an scéal níos casta ná mar a cheapann BRN.

Tá gaeilge sa bhaile ag thart ar 10% de phaistí gaelscoile, agus nasc acu leis an ngaeltacht go minic.

Agus is cainteoirí dúcháis sciar maith des na muinteoirí freisin.

1983434%2C00.html,http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1983434,00.html

An scéal céanna sa guardian, ach le gluais greannmhar ag an deireadh.

Domhnall Parliament was original a French word so there really isn't any Béarlachas there the same with Minister coming from Latin.... DeValera could have been some way intelligent with his Gaelisation of the country rather than just trying to stamp out all traces of Englishness and create artificial language.

A Aonghus,

Ouch agus oops. Tá a fhios agamsa "focal" agus "focail" agus "foclóir." Níl a fhios agam cén fáth (nó cad chuige?) dúirt mé "foclóir," ach tá mé ag gáire ag mé féin.

Go raibh maith agat. Scríobh tú as Gaeilge. Is maith liom é sin. Tá mé ag aistrigh ar feadh m'eolais. An seo ceart go leor? Féach sna (focail):

(Ouch and oops. I know "word" and "words" and "dictionary." I do not know why I said "dictionary," but I am laughing at myself. Thank you. You wrote Irish. I like that. I am translating to the best of my knowledge. Is this right? Look in the (words):)

Tá súil agam nach gcuireann sé as duit, a Mhaidhc, má leasaim de bheagán an méid a scríobh tú.
(I hope that it does not put you out, Mike, if I amend a little amount of what you wrote: "Ba mhaith liom ag léamh na foclóir seo scríofa le Manchán san Irish Times.")

recte: (Correction:)

Thaithin sé liom na focail seo a scríobh Manchán san Irish Times a léamh.
(I enjoyed (was pleasing with me) these words that Manchán wrote in the Irish Times that I read.)

foclóir = dictionary, vocabulary

Is daid beirt páiste gaelscoile mise!
(I am a gaelscoile child and dad.)

Féach; tá an scéal níos casta ná mar a cheapann BRN.
(Look, the story is more twisted than BRN thinks.)

Tá gaeilge sa bhaile ag thart ar 10% de phaistí gaelscoile, agus nasc acu leis an ngaeltacht go minic.
(Gaeilge is in the home of 10% of the gaelscoile children, and they are tied with the Gaeltacht often.)

Agus is cainteoirí dúcháis sciar maith des na muinteoirí freisin.
(And a good share of the teachers are native speakers also.)

I think a good way to spread the irish language is to take the Gaeilge speaking areas and expand them by a mile every year, two years, three or five and that way more people will start to speak the language. You will also need to require businesses to speak and conduct in irish, this would force those people unwilling to use the language to use it because they can't do anything without it and eventually the Gaeilge speaking area would grow very large and eventually take up all of Ireland. but in order to make it work everything would have to be in Gaeilge and thats why it might take up to five years per mile radius.

"...force those people unwilling to use the language to use it because they can't do anything without it ..."

you know, this sounds bad, but was how the Irish stopped speaking Irish in the first place. it always seemed kind of silly to me that people actually think any other way of reversing the trend has a possibility of being very effective. Not that I mean this should be done a the end of a gun, but speaking Irish needs to become an economic and educational necessitiy for people to see practical value in learning it.

Is daid beirt páiste gaelscoile mise!
(I am a gaelscoile child and dad.)
Is * father * of two gaelscoil children * me

agus nasc acu leis an ngaeltacht go minic.
and * connection * with them * to the gaeltacht * often

níos casta - more complicated

Cheap mé dá gcuirfinn 'píosa cam' anseo, léamhfaí cúpla duine ó Ghaelscoileanna mo phost. Ach bíonn siad ar Bebo ag déanamh an Ghaeilge nua le "Buffy-speak and Londonstani slang"...(FRC)

Journalist cod-speak -means nothing, its just designed to sound plausable. I've never heard any Londistani speak from a Dubliner. Englighten me if I'm wrong.

BAsed on TG4, I've never heard anyone under 24 ever speak fluently. As a consequence, I find it hard to beleive that are kids native or naturalised who can speak it.

I find it offensive that people automatically assume 'correctness' on those who are deemed 'superior' by virtue of their class of birth/accent. The mother's of many of them were poor country girls who married a middle class gentlemen and affected a 'posh' accent. Often they have no professional qualifications, and think by talking a certain way, they get a class leg up for free. And it seems to be working as readers here are fallig into line, even from this distance.

If there were a large number of neo-native country people speaking Irish, this board would be comparing it to the 'superior' urban dialect.

There is NO urban dialect until it becomes stable. Anyway, to use the term 'dialect' is to dignify a dog to the same standing as its master. Where's it's literature? Thaw (Spring is coming) May (month) egg (yum yum) conch (shell)? Cad-ever.

An mharaigh mé an snáth?

On a lighter note I did think it cute that a whole load of kids were hearing this, and turnign to each other muttering in Irish that it was unacceptable that their language was been mocked, then go an get their parents to phone in and complain.