Traditional - 'Teach an fhir ruaidh'; 'cat na mná nuaidhe'.
Caighdeán - 'Teach an fhir rua'; 'cat na mná nua'.

Which spelling of the forms of the adjectives most closely corresponds to the pronunciation in the spoken language today?

Unless I'm mistaken, if the older spelling still represents the pronunciation it would be:
Munster: ru:@g' & nu:@
South Connacht: ru:@ & nu:@
North Connacht and Ulster: ru:@j & nu:@j@


P.S. Before people start about this being another nit-picking question about orthography, it's simply a genuine question about the pronunciation of the spoken language. Because of the caighdeán changes I'm genuinely confused about this.

Tá an ceart agat fén bhfuaimniú )))

Is mise 7rl

(Message edited by Róman on December 19, 2006)

Chuir mé an cheist chéanna, nach mór, anseo faoin nginideach uatha den aidiacht sa nGaighdeán. Agus tá botún déanta agatsa, fhad is a thuigim: ní "cat na mná nua" a chaithfeas a bheith ann, ach "cat na mná nuaí" de réir na rialachacha oifigiúla. Cheickeáil foclóir an Dónallaigh.

quote:

South Connacht: ru:@ & nu:@

Níl /nu:@/ ann, ach /nu:/ nó /nu:i:/ (an dara ceann le cloisteáil i gCeantar na nOileáin ar an laghad). Agus ní bheith aon athrú ar an aidiacht seo sa gninideach uatha baininscneach. Maidir leis an gcéad cheann, "rua", is dóigh nach bhfuil athrúintí air sa ngnáth-chaint ach oiread, ach maireann an fhoirm /ru@i/ sa leagan seargtha den logainm "an Cheathrú Rua" agus é sa nginideach, i.e. "muintir na Ceathrún Ruaidhe".

Peter

"cat na mná nuaí" de réir na rialachacha oifigiúla

Ní dóigh liom sin, a Pheadair: tá mé féin a' déanamh nach féidir na haidiachtaí a chríochnas ar ghuta a dhíochlaonadh, ach amháin cupla éisceacht mar "fada" (-> níos faide). Ins a' chaighdeán, síleam go bhfaighfeá "nua" in achan tuiseal, san iolraidh is san uathadh...

Maidir le Gaeilg Uladh, deireann muidinne "nuaidh", "cruaidh", ruaidh"; hata na mná ruaidhe (roo-uy-yih), níos cruaidhe, leabharthaí nuaidhe. Leis an fhírinne a ráidht, bíonn -uaidh againne i chóir a bheith achan fhocal a scríobhtar a dheireadh le -ua sa litriú chaighdeánach. (tuaigh, buaidhe, sluaigh, srl).

Nóta: i gcuid do Chúige Mumhan, fuaimneann daoiní an focal "nua" mar "nó" nó "nú". I Múscraí, síleam go n-abrann siad "nó", mar shampla.

nua [aidiacht den tríú díochlaonadh]
úr, a tháinig ann le déanaí (prátaí nua, scéal nua); nach bhfacthas nó nárbh eolach roimhe sin (múinteoir nua); nár úsáideadh nó nár caitheadh cheana.


Foirmeacha
nua - aidiacht nua [ainmneach uatha ]
nua [ginideach firinscneach ]
nuaí [ginideach baininscneach ]
nua [ainmneach iolra]
nua [ginideach iolra]
nuaí [breischéim ]

Go raibh maith agaibh as na freagraí.

Cionnas arbh fhéidir le héinne a shéanadh gurbh fhearr an seanchóras ná praiseach an chaighdeáin don teangain bheo mar a labhruightear indiu í?
Nuair a thosnuigheas ag foghlaim na Gaedhilge ní raibh a fhios agam fé'n athrughadh litrighthe agus is iad na litrighthe caighdeánacha ba mhó a chuir mearbhall orm.
EG. nua > nuaí; naomh > naofa; brostaigh > brostaím etc. etc.

A Shéamais,

"cionnas"?

Cionnas = Ca ionnas. The origin of conas. To be fair I was certainly a bit pedantic in using it.
Con(n)as is the form in the living language now.

Just a brief word on this general issue. My obvious preference of the traditional orthography over the Caighdeán is not simply me being an old-fashioned git who won't accept change and who thinks all Irish, written and spoken, should be perfect classical Irish. It's based on my own experiences as a learner. I genuinely experienced great difficulty and frustration with the written language for the first couple of years and progressed very slowly because of it. That was until I bought a copy of Dinneen's dictionary, it was as if a veil had been lifted from before my eyes. Suddenly things which had seemed so awkward and random before fitted together perfectly. A real milestone in my journey with the language was the night I finally, using Dinneen's, managed to 'get my head around' the various forms ending in -(a)igh. It was a real pleasure to see it clearly. Maybe I'm a bit bloody daft or something but I just never managed it before using the caighdeán spellings.
I have no doubt that caighdeán spelling can really hold some learners back and perhaps even discourage some entirely from continuing with the language and that angers me.

A Shéamuis,

I enjoyed reading your posting above, especially in regard to the origin of conas. I'm a follower of An Caighdeán Oifigiúil as I see it as a necessary unifier of the Irish language, but I'd also love to see the continuation of the dialects as autonomous, true representations of the Irish language. As a beginner, I haven't experienced the trouble you mentioned in Caighdeán-like spellings. Maybe it's because I'm not down the learning road far enough to know. But I would be very grateful if you could post an example of your experience with the (a)igh endings and how it relates to the Caighdeán spellings.

Nollaig Shona Dhuit!

FRC-GRMA

"I'm a follower of An Caighdeán Oifigiúil as I see it as a necessary unifier of the Irish language"

I agree, there should be a written standard (with some dialect differences accepted) and in that regard I don't think the present caighdeán does a bad job (although many, particularly from the northern half of Ireland, are unhappy with it). It's the issue of spelling where I believe they really messed things up.

To me, the single most awkward change brought about by the caighdeán is the way (a) letters can be dropped to be replaced by entirely new ones and (b) letters can apparently come out of nowhere.
Eg. (a) 'aontaigh' - For the verbal noun '-aigh' is dropped and replaced by 'ú'. For the past participle and genitive the 'gh' is replaced by 'th'. The plural ends '-uithe'. For the subjunctive it's all dropped again, this time replaced by '-í'. For the second person plural of the imperative '-igh' is dropped to be replaced by '-ígí' etc.

Aontaigh-----------Aontuigh
Aontaím------------Aontuighim
Aontaithe----------Aontuighthe
Aontaíodh----------Aontuigheadh

Subjunctive- could have been made so simple. In modern Irish the appropriate short vowel is simply added to the end of the verb, so: go mbrise, go ndéana, AND (logically) go n-aontuighe.

The older verbal noun ending was a bit cumbersome but still far more regular than the caighdeán form: Aontughadh - the 'gh'is made broad and the familiar ending '-adh' is added.

The second person plural imperitive will always be a problem. Originally it was madee by adding '-(a)idh' to the end of the verb but in Connacht and Ulster this came to be pronunced @gi:. I have no satisfactory soultion to this myself. Maybe others have some ideas.


(b) was exemplified perfectly in the examoples of the forms of 'nua' given above. It's all regular until used after the genitive of a feminine noun when 'í' is suddenly stuck on to the end. Not only did the older spelling perfectly represent the pronunciation in every dialect of the living language, it was also completely regular: 'teach an fhir dhuibh'/'teach an fhir ruaidh' (from nom. 'ruadh'); 'teach na mná duibhe'/'teach na mná ruaidhe'.


I'm not claiming that it's beyond anyone to, eventually, come to grips with the caighdeán system. For me personally it was more the irritation it caused than anything else. But surely the traditional orthography was far clearer and more logical. And was an enormous help to me in my study of the language.



Thanks to anyone who took the time to read all this drivel :).
(Sorry it wasn't in Irish)

PS. I've realised I must sound like a nostalgic oldd man with fond memories of the good old days when it was done right. I'm not, I'm 26 with my attention directed to the future.