A chairde,

I am sick and tired to read everywhere and on this site as well that Gaelainn is in a terminal decline. After my visit to Ireland I have very mixed feelings, but still I feel we are at the inflection point when future of Irish is decided.

It is in no doubt that the traditional Irish of gaeltachts will demise together with rural Ireland itself. Nobody has the right to force gaeltacht people to live in reservations for the joy of language enthusiasts, lacking basic amenities, entertainment, health care. So my prediction is that gaeltachts will become breac-Gaeltachts first (mind all those summer houses and ever expanding suburbs of Gailleamh and Sligeach) and then the same as the rest of Ireland.

Where I see the future - in the new urban Irish, where the tongue becomes the symbol of status, poshness - mind all those infamous Dublin postal codes which very often signalise children in gaelscoileanna as well. Irish shall become a language of ruling elite, media starts and entertainment gurus. It will open certain doors and lead to speedy career progression. All this will cause rumblings and dissatisfaction of population from smaller places where there are no or not enough of gaelscoileanna.

Then one of those kids who is at the Gaelic high school now will seize power in the elections and FORCE Irish directly on the throats of all those vocal supporters of English. In couple of generations time Ireland will become 60% Irish speaking. All is needed now - political will, which will be found only in people who are still children now.


Cad is dóigh libh?

Chuala mé Manchán Magan ar RnaG ar maidin.

http://www.manchan.com/pb/wp_f4b21f7c/wp_f4b21f7c.html?0.19470595691249465

Bhí seisean den tuairim freisin gurbh iad lucht na gaelscoileanna an tuar dócháis.

Nílimse ró chinnte; is iomaí daltaí a fuair meanscolaíocht tré ghaeilge nach labhrann corr ar bith níos mó í.


Má tá athrú le teacht, is ón mbun aníos a thiocfaidh sé, mar a tháinig RnaG, TnaG, Gaelscoileanna, ....

Róman,

Your post raises many questions. First of all, if what you say is right, should you really be learning a "living Gaeltacht dialect". Your post indicates that you are rethinking your attachment to the Muskerry Gaeltacht. Maybe standard Irish simply is the only future that Irish is going to have?

Is there a government agency that regulates gaelscoileanna? You know in England they have a "literacy hour" by law, every day in school. And some people have commented that some people who matriculate from gaelscoileanna have a different kind of Irish than in the Gaeltacht, including - in the case of Belfast Shaws Road, Irish without lenition, eclipsis or even slender/broad contrasts.

So maybe, the thing to do is to to focus on Standard Irish and just hope the Irish government will regulate gaelscoileanna by enforcing a literacy and pronunciation hour every day at school, so that all pupils have 1) slender/broad contrasts; 2) tense and lax contrasts for l and n; 3) lenition and eclipsis; and 4) an Irish lacking in Anglicisms.

You are right: when the last Gaeltacht is gone, Irish won't be a dead language. It always was unfair to focus solely on the Gaeltacht. Supposedly there are 10,000 daily speakers in the Gaeltacht, but apparently 100,000 fluent speakers in Ireland as a whole.

quote:

Is there a government agency that regulates gaelscoileanna?

Not as such; they come under the Dept of Education as does any school.

quote:

Belfast Shaws Road, Irish without lenition, eclipsis or even slender/broad contrasts.

What's that based on? I have heard/spoken to several people from there, and I cannot confirm that.

That fact that gaeltachtaí are being weakened is not a reason not to learn those dialects - it is all the more reason to do so.

The danger is in exclusively insisting that only a particular dialect is valid.

There is no such thing as Standard Spoken Irish.

I greatly admire people like Róman and Lughaidh who successfully immerse themselves in a dialect, as long as they don't insist that the Irish I learned growing up in an Irish speaking household in Dublin is worthless, because it has been subject to several influences.

RnaG has already made dialects more mutually comprehensible by exposure than used to be the case; over time a standard RnaG Irish may emerge, although at the moment they are focussed on cherishing all the dialects equally (and I support that).

Most fluent speakers of any dialect can follow a conversation in any form of Irish.

You can't say Eire will become 60% Irish speaking, there's no way of predicting anything like that.

The media is definitely having a positive influence but i've said it before and i'll say it again the only way to really improve the language is through changing the education system..

quote:

if what you say is right, should you really be learning a "living Gaeltacht dialect".

Cinnte, as this is the only real, living community language.

quote:

Your post indicates that you are rethinking your attachment to the Muskerry Gaeltacht

Ní hea, go deo!

quote:

Maybe standard Irish simply is the only future that Irish is going to have?

There is no "standard" pronunciation. Even if writing in caighdeán, children pronounce the words in some dialect, or mixture thereof. Lárchanúint - R.I.P.

quote:

Irish without lenition, eclipsis or even slender/broad contrasts.

It is not Irish, not even a Celtic language. Do they study some kind of Chinese there?

quote:

the thing to do is to to focus on Standard Irish

Your proposal is akin to "let's focus on ink for want of French wine". This mock of Irish is not worth an effort (at least mine).

quote:

tense and lax contrasts for l and n

We, in Munster, are happily oblivious of such nonsense ))) Gaelainn na Mumha abú!

quote:

The danger is in exclusively insisting that only a particular dialect is valid.

Tá an ceart agat! That's is WHY I will never accept caighdeán.

quote:

Irish I learned growing up in an Irish speaking household in Dublin is worthless

I never said that, neither did Lughaidh. But if I have to chose between you and Dillon, then sorry, Aonghus, tá rud orm )))

I liked Aonghus's post about dialect. I think it would be sad if spoken Irish was standardized and homogenized to all sound the same. I myself will be very sad when the Gaeltachtai are gone. I felt happier there than I have in most places. Even so, I don't think I'd live there unless I become good at Irish, the last thing the Gaeltacht needs is more Bearla floating through the air.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

I never said that, neither did Lughaidh.

Ní dúirt mé go ndúirt. Agus aontaíom leat - ní udarás mé!

quote:

the last thing the Gaeltacht needs is more Bearla floating through the air

Is fíor duit. Agus is fíor é sin freisin faoin Cyber-Gaeltacht.

/quote Belfast Shaws Road, Irish without lenition, eclipsis or even slender/broad contrasts.
What's that based on? I have heard/spoken to several people from there, and I cannot confirm that.

Aonghus, you must be right. I was basing it on various comments on the Internet, which seem a bit old to tell the truth.

Actually, while I think the authorities should monitor the "end result" of students having gone through gaelscoileanna to ensure that good Irish is uniformly acquired, this is probably not something to worry unduly about. If you think how Hiberno-English was acquired, and is gradually being converted into very standard English, then education can ultimately ensure that good Irish is the end result.

Seeing as you seem to have first hand information Aonghus, was the Shaws Road Irish perfectly normal? ie with lenition, eclipsis, the copula and all that? do you have any interesting details to impart?

Seeing as you seem to have first hand information Aonghus, was the Shaws Road Irish perfectly normal? ie with lenition, eclipsis, the copula and all that? do you have any interesting details to impart?

That particular road aside, the Irish I've heard around the
Springfield Road/Ballymurphy/Falls Road area seems quite normal for a non-Gaeltacht district -- pronunciations somewhat like Donegal but showing some Béarla influences, and the grammar is fairly close to Donegal Irish. I've been to visit two naoiscoileanna there (and I think a bunscoil as well), and heard both lenition & eclipsis where one would expect them.

I can't imagine it's very different elsewhere in Belfast.

A Kieran, I suspect your "sources" are getting their facts from their hindquarters.

Cionadh seems to have better information, and what he says fits with my limited experience (never having been to belfast - I was going on people I met in Dublin or heard on RnaG).

As long as I can understand people, I tend not to dissect their speech.

My information on Shaws Rd comes from Linguist list: surf to http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0102c&L=lowlands-l&P=1423

It was written by someone called Criostoir O Ciardha, and honestly he sounds like he knows what he is talking about

Thanks for the URL. Interesting reading.

He does talk a good game, but look at this very simple example he gives -- even a rank beginner wouldn't make this assertion:

Donegal Irish: Cad é mar atá tú?
lit. "What it like is you?"
Conmara Irish: Conas tá tú?
lit. "How are you?"


That sort of carelessness aside, if I hadn't been in that area in the 1980s & 1990s and seen things for myself, I might've been tempted to believe what he writes, as it seems to have some authoritativeness about it.

He also writes:

Therefore the Gaelic colour spectrum has been
discarded in Shaw Road's Gaelic in favour of a
one-to-one with English but I'm unsure whether this
will last considering that most Irish speakers shun
the English spectrum. We may see the Irish of the SRG
become gradually regaelicised over time as the network
grows and evolves and is reintegrated into Donegal
Irish.

He wrote that in 2001; my most lengthy visit to that city was 1992, and I saw/heard no evidence then of what he asserts in 2001, nor on a visit later in the same decade. Did this problem spring up mysteriously between 1999 and 2001?

Is Shaw's Road some strange microcosm, unaffected by the decent Irish elsewhere in the city? I really doubt it.

I'm willing to be proven wrong if there's some substantial body of evidence to support this fellow's assertions, but it just doesn't square with my own experience.

This Criostóir makes a mixed reading, indeed. Consider this -

quote:

Tá sé ocras air

Rather an dearmhad greannmhar, nach ea?

Given that it is a list discussing Ulster Scots and realted languages, I get a strong whiff of Northern Ireland politics about it.

To be treated with extreme caution!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/recordings/group/ulsterirish-belfast.shtml

Judge for yourselves!

The BBC also recorded a Gweedore conversation for comparison: it is at http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/recordings/group/ulsterirish-gaothdobhair.shtml

I think we can safely assume that Criostóir's assertion that all of Belfast's Irish-speaking village idiots live on the Shaw's Road is utter nonsense.

Let me take this opportunity to try to steer the thread back toward Róman's original topic.

Scríobh Róman:
So my prediction is that gaeltachts will become breac-Gaeltachts first (mind all those summer houses and ever expanding suburbs of Gailleamh and Sligeach) and then the same as the rest of Ireland.

I suspect that's probably the way things will go. I don't think the future of the Irish language is in the Gaeltachts, but rather amongst enlightened-minded people in the Galltacht, who will choose to make it a part of their lives despite living amongst English-speakers.

Scríobh sé chomh maith:
Then one of those kids who is at the Gaelic high school now will seize power in the elections and FORCE Irish directly on the throats of all those vocal supporters of English. In couple of generations time Ireland will become 60% Irish speaking. All is needed now - political will, which will be found only in people who are still children now.

This seems a bit unrealistic to me. At best -- and assuming the children in the Gaelcoileanna today appreciate the experiences they've had -- I think we might hope that Irish will have a place in Ireland much like French has in Canada outside the province of Québec: respected, officially supported, used daily by some, understood by most.

After my visit to Ireland I have very mixed feelings, but still I feel we are at the inflection point when future of Irish is decided.

I agree this is a crucial time, and a lot is depending upon how well we do with this next generation. If we manage to not repeat the mistakes of previous generations and instead imbue Irish usage with some degree of coolness/hipness, we might just manage the best-case scenario I described above.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/recordings/group/ulsterirish-belfast.shtml

quote:

Judge for yourselves!

D'athscríobh mé an clip. Is féidir nach bhfuil an méid a bhreac mé síos céad faoin gcéad cruinn, ach seo agaibh é:

"Tá stádas ag an duine a bhfuil an Ghaeilge aige nó aici ins an phobal a bhfuil muid ann. (Inniu?) níl Gaeilge ag formhór an phobail ach tá meas uirthi. Ní oibríonn sé i gcónaí amach ar leibhéal an talaimh, mar a deirtear, ach go hoifigiúil, in idéoeolaícht an phobail ar tógadh ann muidne, tá stádas ag an duine a bhfuil Gaeilge aige. Tá certain meas ag/ar (?) an duine a bhfuil Gaeilge aige nó aici."

Have at it, yih pack of hyenas!

“Is there a government agency that regulates gaelscoileanna? You know in England they have a "literacy hour" by law, every day in school. And some people have commented that some people who matriculate from gaelscoileanna have a different kind of Irish than in the Gaeltacht, including - in the case of Belfast Shaws Road, Irish without lenition, eclipsis or even slender/broad contrasts”

The State in the Rebublic has become so tied up with beurocracy and a culture of arrogant laziness, that really, nobody would be able to implement anything, and no one would care really. Sad, but I spent a week trying to call and turn up to a State agency to make an enquiry, before I got through to someone, and that was only when they felt sorry for me!

“What's that based on? I have heard/spoken to several people from there [Shaw’s], and I cannot confirm that.”

The material comes from this book -Gabrielle Maguire, Our Own Language: An Irish Initiative (Clevedon: Multilingual Matters, 1991). It outlines that all active use of case, broad/slender phonemics, and eclipsis has gone out the window. Lenition is not fully utilised either. This comes from her sample, which were the kids of the group who set up the community.

Having heard two of their number on TV, I can confirm that there is NO difference from the local English pronounciation in the now adults of her sample. The belief on the board is that the speech parametres are now the same as the Donegal gaeltacht (I find this unlikely, as kids copy from their environment, and it would be impossible for them to start speaking like Donegal natives spontanously).

I think what is occuring here, is that a lot of the posters are not from the North, and feel (albeit unconsciously) that “its all the same up there” (don’t percieve fundamental differences between east and west Norn Iron). Maybe the speakers there actually think of themselves as ‘spiritually connected’ to Donegal, but that is a different question. To me, it’s not a case of good or bad, just something to see is-it-or-isint-it

“We, in Munster, are happily oblivious of such nonsense ))) Gaelainn na Mumha abú!”

And if there were 15 contrasts, it would be a different story!


Nílim ábalta a rith "Reel PLayer" ar mo ríomhaire, soo, níor chuala mé é; da bharr sin, níl aon 'c(h)omment' air!

The material comes from this book -Gabrielle Maguire, Our Own Language: An Irish Initiative (Clevedon: Multilingual Matters, 1991). It outlines that all active use of case, broad/slender phonemics, and eclipsis has gone out the window. Lenition is not fully utilised either.

Funny, I didn't see/hear any of these problems at naoiscoileanna and among adult speakers in west Belfast in February 1992, probably less than a year after that study was published. Miraculous recovery, perhaps?

Does anyone here know anything about the background of this Gabrielle Maguire? Any axes to grind?

"Judge for yourselves!"

Even to my inexpert ears, they sound like they're speaking Gaeilge with an exceedingly thick Hiberno-Irish accent.

More specifically, they sound like non-native speakers who learned Gaeilge as a second language at an advanced age, but are too lazy to speak it correctly.

Yoo know, kahnd of lahk zee leetle old Frohnsh lay-dee zat leeved down zee street frohm me when I wahz growing up, she could speak zee Eengleesh vehreh well but you know, she johst didn't bozair to overcome her eentensely Frohnsh ahk-zent! Eet cood be eizer cute or annoying.

These people remind me of her. Hilarious!

The Belfast clip and the Gweedore clip are like two different languages. I am learning Connaught Irish, but the Gweedore clip at least sounds like the same language. The Belfast clip? Without homing in on specific words - thanks, Dennis, for the transcription - it sounds like English. As I listened to the Belfast clip, I started to wonder whether Róman is right in saying that the Galltacht is the future of Irish. Maybe, once the Gaeltacht is finished, all the Gaelscoileanna should be wrapped up and the game declared over. I find it difficult to get a good accent in Irish, but if I thought I was going to sound like that Shaws Road man, I would forget it. I can now understand why Gaeltacht figures like Ó Grianna came to oppose the revival of Irish, as the revival of a fake and distorted form. Let's face it, Shaws Road is not a Gaeltacht - traditional Irish was lost in the area a long time ago. Revulsion! Revulsion! Revulsion!

Its probably best to not agree completely with one opinion or another of Falls Road Irish. Some people sound very much like those in Donegal and some sound very much like English speakers from Bellfast who don't try very hard. Both are apparently true.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

I can now understand why Gaeltacht figures like Ó Grianna came to oppose the revival of Irish, as the revival of a fake and distorted form.

I don't see such a tragedy in lamentable pronunciation if not for one annoying attribute of English-background speakers. Their MILITANCY in defending bad Irish! And the danger is that those learners one day will overwhelm the native speakers and will "correct" native Irish.

The problem arises from general laziness of English speakers to study languages properly (not only Irish), and convolution of two unrelated things - Irish citizenship (ancestry) and Irish pronunciation. By some bizarre logic learners of Irish are sure that their pronunciation is unfallible just because 300 years ago their ancestors were speaking Irish. Even more absurd thories are put forward - that the reason why their Irish sounds different from Irish in Geltacht is not their ignorance, but because the original Irish dialect their ancestors spoke was different (sic!). So if, say, a Dublinman does not distinguish broad/slender - it is because it is a legacy of Leinster Irish!

This strange ideas are fostered, propagated and vociferously defended to the detriment of authentic Irish. This will lead to demise Irish and emergence of some kind of Talk-Pisin or the like. It will not be a Celtic language anymore.

My hope is pinned on the quest for authenticity by some revival participants. When Irish as such will become less exotic (and I believe we are not so far away from that), when gaelscoileanna are ubiquitous, then a natural wish to differentiate between them will lead to a race for more "proper" language. Purism is coming, don't worry. All revived languages have come through this painful purging of the langauges. All those "fair play" will go - remember my words.

Let me make some comments:

First the Antrim accent is cat -probably the worst in Ireland, at least among Catholics. Grammar school Protestants have a much more pleasant ring. That alone is reason they should speak like their from Donegal -for reasons of shame. If they don't -stop speaking, in any language!

Second, it is not a case of grammar (logic) and sounds (phonology). Irish sounds quiet clearly operate in a medium sphere (lets call it 'phono-logic'/morhophonology (?), I dont know the linguistic term). The number, actor, and case inflection require the substitution of one sound for a member of it's complement in it's 'mirror set' (i.e. one t for another, cat --> cait). Both sets are phonemic (seperate sounds), so they are fundamental aspects of the tongue. I see no reason to ignore this.

Third, there is a class issue here. Native speakers, like Travellers, are lower class (which is better than the old underclass status they once held), no doubt about that. When someone higher on the spectrum comes into contact, the former if in a position of ignorance (read: disempowerment) often finds some other way to reestablish the status quo. They know they have crap irish, but by speaking in a hammy west-britesque manner, or even just in an Hiberno English fashion, the class markings are signaled and (phew!) everyone is back to square one. A bit of a characature, I know, but ther's a bit of truth in it.

However, in most cases the learner is just too uninterested in doing it right to care, anyway.

Fourth, it is interesting that despite the erudite nature of some of the posters above, they have neglected (what appears to my viewpoint) an area of importanace, and as a consequence, dont make the distinctions. Of course, fluency brings focus on content of message, not just articulation.

There are a lot of funny things in the culture of irish. Look as the Prepositional Case forms (or not). Standard irish wants to do away with them, even when it is simpler to have them (lámh --> *láimh* --> láimhe). It would not be possible in Conemara to have them, but if they are in West/South Munster, why not?

Also, the fact of calling it the 'Dative', or lenition 'aspiration', or 5 declensions, or the imaginary nominative-accustiave distinction, or the rigid imperfect, conditional, future etc tenses; these fictions act to confuse. It shows that writers of books have such contempt for the modern tongue, that they wont describe it in appropriate terms.

Even in my basic state, I can see that there are things in the language that are either vaguely outlined (morphophonology) or not at all (the way in which natives and the fluent use the conditional for the future sometimes when been idiomatic, and then others the actual future (paralleled to some degree, it may be, in how Hiberno-English uses the modal 'would' in a flexible manner).

The last bit is totally ignored, which is a pity, as fluency would appear to require it

BRN - Tá rud orm ach nílim ró-chinnte gur thuigeas thú go maith! Cad a bhí á rá agat?

Róman,
your opinions are based on too little data.

Most learners of Irish in Ireland, some vociferous posters here nothwithstanding, do strive for good pronunciation.

And "Purism", misunderstood, has been the curse of the revival movement since the start, with learners "correcting" gaeltacht speakers who happen to have a different standard or usage.

There is a broad spectrum of Irish spoken inside and outside the gaeltachtaí. Care is needed in wiping out bad habits; and the key to that is improving the Irish of teachers, and broadening the minds of pupils by providing them with good examples from all the genuine dialects.

http:///~cnagie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=77&Itemid =102&lang=ga

Scríobh Riona:
Its probably best to not agree completely with one opinion or another of Falls Road Irish. Some people sound very much like those in Donegal and some sound very much like English speakers from Bellfast who don't try very hard. Both are apparently true.

True everywhere, in my experience. Gaeltachts tend to be somewhat more consistent in idiom & pronunciation (they use it daily within a fixed sphere of speakers), but even they vary a bit depending on age, reading tastes, personal influences, etc.

Outside the Gaeltacht, all bets are off. We can speak in generalities (such as "pronunciations in Derry and Belfast are most similar to Donegal"), but there's a lot more room/reason for variation once you're outside of the areas where Irish is spoken daily.

At any given moment you may meet someone whose pronunciation is dodgy because he/she is still learning (but intends to improve), or he/she may just be a bit lazy and doesn't care to finesse their Irish. You might also meet speakers in one area of Ireland who tend to use words/phrases/pronunciations that are associated with some other area -- perhaps they had/have a friend or teacher from another Gaeltacht? Such a person may or may not have intention to modify their speech to the norms of the area where they live. It usually does no more than raise eyebrows briefly -- we all understand them, after all. Only "purists" are disturbed by this sort of thing.

Go abroad and you'll encounter an additional dynamic -- non-Irish accents incorporated into one's Irish. Once again, the person you meet with such an accent may be intending to "improve" their accent (i.e. sound more Irish) -- or maybe they don't care. I teach in an area of the U.S. where the pronunciation of non-initial "r" in English is rare ("don"t pahk ya cah in Hahvid Yahd"), so for many it's a long struggle to rediscover the medial & final "r" consonants needed in Irish. Some try & succeed. Some don't bother, and do the best they can with their handicap intact.

I don't think there are many here who will label such variations/omissions/handicaps "ideal", but people thus encumbered can understand and be understood. For some that's "good enough", while for others it's simply a waystation on the road to better Irish.

Any faults being found in the small sample of Shaw's Road Irish cited above should be viewed in that way -- these could be a few sub-optimal speakers who will remain that way forever, or they may have gone on to become excellent speakers in the months that followed. They certainly shouldn't be viewed as a city-wide indicator of the status of Belfast Irish. There's good & bad (and indifferent) everywhere you go -- Gaeltachts included.

My thanks to Riona for her very open-minded observation quoted above. It'd be nice to see more of that and less of the pontification of our resident purists.

(Message edited by cionaodh on December 18, 2006)

What is this constant galar that afflicts some of the learners here? Again and again we see people here who don't use the language themselves getting their knickers in a knot over how others, who do use the language, measure up. This is unseemly at best, and reeks of sour grapes. Éirígí as, in ainm Dé. Cuirigí feabhas ar bhur gcuid Gaeilge féin.

Tuar dóchais eile don nGaeilge:

Acadamh na hOllscolaíochta Gaeilge

http://www.gaeilge.oegaillimh.ie/

Oideachas 3ú leibhéal don nGaeltacht, sa Ghaeltacht.

And, of course, Dennis couldn't miss opportunity to show off his admittedly superior Irish. Aren't you one of those who get satisfaction by showing off in front of those who (as it is known in advance) know less than you do? Go and show off in front of native speakers! With your pitiful, lamentable American accent! Too tough-a-task???
Your arrogant stance will not cut any ice here!

While of course being fluent is important, all people have different methods for learning. Some try flying before they crawl (and inevitably crash), other prefer a step-by-step approach. As having no Irish relatives-ancestry (and speaking MY native tongue from childhood on) - I have no qualms of conscience to speed anywhere with my Irish. I have right (and no obligation at all) to take it at leisurely pace. And sometimes it is better to repeat the same stuff several times before jumping ahead not having basics of the language. I am proud of the fact I got interested one more person Irish, and yes - I teach the language to him, because probably there is nobody else in the radius of 300 km (~200 miles) who could do it else. We are probably the only 2 person to study Irish in Lithuania. My repeated ads on internet boards have never returned a response.

So, don't moralise, Dennis, and get a more useful activity. And by the way - it is only your type of logic to compare yourself to people who are twice younger than you and will probably know Irish not worse than you at your age!

(Message edited by Róman on December 18, 2006)

Your arrogant stance will not cut any ice here!

Dúirt an pota: "Is dubh an créatúr tusa, a chiteal".

I'm not too sure you're being fair, Róman.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't see any hint of Dennis's accent - American, lamentable or otherwise - in the message he posted. In fact, I haven't a clue what his spoken Irish sounds like. Do you?

And if he were really wanting to "show off his superior Irish" I'll bet he could say something just a little bit more complicated than "Éirígí as, in ainm Dé."


Your point about different learning styles is a valid one. More of that, please, and less of the personal invective.

Abigail

Róman, I really don't think anyone's showing off here -- Dennis merely asked learners here to worry more about their own Irish and less about the quality (good/bad/indifferent) of others. Since you reside in a linguistic equivalent of a glass house, you'd do well to desist from the throwing of rocks. In any direction.

I do get the point that Dennis and Cionaodh have made from time to time. Well, at least, I think I get it. I think it is this: don't be sidetracked by various issues and get on with learning the language. Is that the basic, fundamental point?

Firstly let me say I have studied 15 chapters of Learning Irish, a book that focuses on Galway Irish. There is the occasional phrase that I could throw in in Irish, but the structure of the book is such, as far as I can tell, that it probably comes together by the end of the book, but in the middle of the book, you still have very little ability to make the sentences you want to make. Yes I can conjugate the verb tá in all of its tenses, but can only give the imperatives of Type 1 and Type 2 verbs - even the present tense occurs late in the book! LOL! Yes I could peek at future chapters and stick my nose in a dictionary, but the results might, or might not, be correct, and I don't think it is productive to leap ahead of where I am. Do people understand this point?

OK, so you could say: well, then, concentrate on assimilating the final 21 chapters of Learning Irish, and then comment on various issues. In a way, that would make a bit of sense in that I would be being encouraged to devote my energies to actually mastering the language. But - BUT - but - unlike other languages I have learned, the instruction, "just go away and learn the language", raises a multiplicity of questions. Learn what? The standard? A dialect? Aonghus said on this site there is not such thing as standard spoken Irish. So what am I meant to learn, and using which book, and why?

I noticed on one or two occasions Dennis use a phrase, which I think comes from American football, about "not Monday morning quarterbacking". As far as I can tell, it means, don't query the result when the game is over (in the football context), and don't try to unpick what is already sorted (in the language context). Right? CO, he has said, is a "done deal". Actually, with any language other than Irish, I would agree. If I learned any language, I would want to learn the most standard form. Let's say your ancestors are from the lowlands of Scotland and you are a foreigner learning English, and would have preferred that "Lowland Scots" had formed the basis for standard English, it would still be a bizarre choice not to learn standard English (and then if you were still interested to read up on Scots dialect). No Monday morning quarterbacking them, because standard English really is a "done deal".

The reason why many learners get caught up on issues is 1) interest in the issues, a fascinating with which complements their language learning; and 2) the standard is not really a done deal at all - as Aonghus pointed out there is no standard spoken Irish. Actually, it may pain fluent speakers to hear it, but this kind of "choice" when learning Irish makes it all the more interesting. You could actually choose yourself what to learn - play a kind of game of Fantasy Endangered Language (FEL) - choose the pronunciation, grammar and lexis you want to learn! LOL! Now, I know that government press releases are written in "standard" Irish - but I don't think anyone is learning Irish in order to read them. Are great works of literature written in "standard" Irish? I heard occasionally about Harry Potterish literature being translated into standard Irish, and no one being 100% satisfied with the result.

So why learn Irish? It is not to read Harry Potter in standardised Irish or read government press releases. To that extent standard Irish is an irrelevance. It only impinges on my game of FEL to the extent that the dictionaries and grammar books tend to talk about standard Irish, and so "standardized" Irish is like a hurdle to jump over in order to get to what you REALLY want to learn. LOL! Let's say you want to read literature: surely you want to read Cré na Cille (Galway), Séadna (Munster) or something by the Grianna brothers (Ulster)? In other words, correct me if I am wrong please, but if you want to read real Irish literature, the only literature out there worth reading is dialectal literature, right? And if you want to understand Irish as it is spoken in Irish-speaking areas, once again, that's dialect. But, as I said, this is really a game of FEL, so I can't deny some the choice to choose the so-called standard, while I choose dialect, because that is all part of the fun of learning a language with no real standard, like Irish.

In other words 1) to learn Irish, you need to be a Monday morning quarterbacker from the get-go; and 2) Monday morning quarterbacking, aka choosing your permutation of choices in this game of FEL, is the very fun of learning Irish. It wouldn't be half so much fun without the Monday morning quarterbacking series of choices you have to make. LOL! Clearly, if you know nothing about Irish, and you go into a bookshop and buy a book called Teach Yourself Irish by Ó Sé, and read the blurb on the back "this is standard Irish" - you would think "great, that's exactly what I want". Who would want to learn a non-standard form of a language, after all? Would an English learner be impressed by a book that aimed to teach English, and said on the back "teaches the Newcastle dialect of English known as Geordie"? I think not!! LOL! So the learner parts with his hard-earned Euros, and buys the book - only to find that people on sites like this diss his choice of textbook. But, then, lo and behold! the joy and fascination of the FEL game unfolds as you realise you can choose yourself which variety of Irish to learn.

Once I have mastered Irish, I will write in Irish. But be warned: once I have mastered Gallivic Irish, my FEL choices - which no one should disdain - are to migrate towards what I call "Dinneen's dialect", with old spelling and old grammar, which I will get out of an old copy of the Christian Brothers' Grammar. I might take me a while to get there, but eventually the dative singular and plural, the old forms of all the verbs - do-chím anyone - will be being used by me in all their glory. It won't be the language of EU laws translated into Irish, but I don't want to read them; it won't even be the language of any specific Gaeltacht, but I don't live in the Gaeltacht. But it will be my very own FEL choices, and, what's more, will be far more similar to the Irish Gaelic of my ancestors than anything else on offer at the moment! It may not please others; it might even rile others (although I hope it doesn't). But it will please ME - and that, a chairde, is basically the only reason why I am learning Irish.

Román,
my post was messy, but I think the basic point was that learners are badly serviced. I dont mind, as I find myself, I'm not a great student, so i have to piece material together anyway.

However, I am aware that descriptions of languages rest on certain methodologies, and if the Dative case in IndoEuropean languages was originally used in relation to 'giving' + indirect object, or later on, took on the functon of other cases, like the locative, a problem of confusion via conflation can arise.

If the learner never reads widly, then it does not matter -its only a symbolic tag. However, if one does go and see what the term 'dative' represents among grammar heads, it can cause confusion. With respect to a more compleate grammar, irish books lack internal and external consistancy. As I said, only a problem if you try to reconcile it with a deeper/large theortic framework.

Dennis,
my knickers are not in a twist, I was most interested in pointing out the areas that are easy for the fluent, but are not covered in learning material, such as how natives like to use the tenses to communicate naturally.

Cionadh,
Maguire was was positive about the Shaw's Road. She outlined how, after one particularly damaging pogram, the money they has ready to build houses for the new Gaeilgeoirí was diverted into building homes for some of their Catholic neighbours who has lost theirs. This was in the days when there was less social money for Catholics, and less social mobility, so greater poverty. She rightly pointed out how brave they were, and how resolute and strong a symbol of self determination they are for West Belfast.

She quickly showed how the genetive in her sample was used in set phrases like 'mála scoile', but not in dynamic phrases. Her point was to say that as kids of learners who fuelled their energy into a symbol of identity, it was no surprise that the non-syntactic bells and whisles got lopped off. She did point out that they could if they wanted, from trips to Gaoth Dobhair, understand trad natives with ease, and re-gaelicise their grammar, but did not choose to in Belfast itself.

She was in no way grinding an axe. The grammar and phonology comments had quotes from young speakers as to eiher explain why they felt more comfortable not inflecting like Donegal, and in the latter examples how they had takaen to english phonology, as support of her statements, but no judgement was offered.

If anything, there was a concern for their future. Some of the first neo-natives were turned off by the fire of their parents and refused to speak in irish again once they left home. That's not a worry now, thank God, with all the speakers in West Belfast.

Scríobh Kieran:
unlike other languages I have learned, the instruction, "just go away and learn the language", raises a multiplicity of questions. Learn what? The standard? A dialect?

No one's saying "go away and learn". Learn -- by whatever means you prefer -- but stick around and let some of us help you with your questions. And try not to get too hung up about whose pronunciations/grammar are "more correct". This advice applies to several of you. The time spent in this pursuit (i.e. over-analysing the "acquisition" of Irish) is time that could have been spent learning more Irish. Ar aghaidh libh!

Scríobh BRN:
Maguire was was positive about the Shaw's Road. (snip)

Go raibh maith agat, a BhRN -- nicely summed up. I suppose it's entirely possible that the situation was slightly different in Ballymurphy when I visited, even though it's in the same city -- in those days, neighbourhoods were a bit more insular (for purposes of self preservation) than they need be now.

For now, since it's irrelevent to the topic of this thread, I'll consider the matter finished.

FEL - very good term, and perhaps the choice of all discerning foghlaimeoirí of the future.

Is this we are at- post modern smorgasbording of dialects?

Maybe that is where we are at as there is no choice. From dialect studies, I MUST base my future learning of phonotactics mostly on Tourmakeedy, and Theelin, as they are the most detailed.

To acknowledge the spoken tongue, I MUST learn both synthetic and analytical grammar -no choice as I respect all dialects.

To understand how the language is spoken idomatically, I MUST use books including phrases of now long dead speakers, and visit living districts. This means mixing phrases from An Rinn and Iorrais.

In order to achieve an aesthetically pleasing result, some sort of choice of how to weigh up the variable elements must be taken, so personal preference comes into it. The standard does not exist -it is only a lexicon, a grammar, and orthographic parametres. The articulation was added on some time in the 70s, and was only suggested.

That's not a language, nor is it sour grapeson my part. I mean look at the PDF Kieran posted the link to. Much of the grammar of the Caighdeán is already in it! 200 years ago! They never bothered their ass making an official dialect. A 'kom-it-é' as it is pronounced, sat for 2 decades drawing a state salary but doing little in the way of work, till some chap decided, it looks like, to recycle a few tomes on his bookshelf!

To defend what is really only a set of recomendations drawn up by (non-native) mandarins seems odd.



Don't call us armchair speakers -our concerns are most fudamental in an Endangered context. All of this should have been sorted out by the 60's, but it was not, so now we have this most (post)modern of fugues. The board has lost focus, in part, as for all the time spent by people comes to naught, and that is damaging when people, even if like me take ages to learn stuff, but are passionate find stuff that professional linguists and book writers never bother to put into books as it doesnot conform with a stereotypical form of grammar reporting based on a form of Romance spoken when Jesus was alive.

Books should have clear statemts such as "when the speaker wishes to convay the current intent of another to engage is a set activity some time in the future, the conditional mood is utilised" then example.

Next an approrpriate contrast is given: "when the speaker wishes to report a clear fact involving known phyiscal system constraints that lead to a predictable future event (such as the moon waxing in the fourth week of the month of Decemeber 2006 as seen from Ireland), the future tense is utilsed", then example.

Maybe that is how Irish is used -I wouldnt know, and as a consequence of such ignorance, all one can do is learn about sound and grammar, rather than communication.

Maybe that is how Irish is used -I wouldnt know, and as a consequence of such ignorance, all one can do is learn about sound and grammar, rather than communication.

You're really missing the point, though, a BhRN -- Irish is a means of communicating. So communicate. Go to the Gaeltacht for visits, get together with other speakers/learners in your area to use your Irish, read a lot, write a lot, absorb it all as best you can. You're much too concerned with the minutiae that has so little to do with the living language.

For those of a scholarly bent, the nit-picking side of things might seem fun -- but then you may as well learn one of the earlier forms of Irish, for the average Irish speaker already thinks you're speaking Klingon when they hear all that linguistic jargon.

Do yourself a favour and stop worrying at the details. There may be time for that when you've mastered the basics -- or you may find by then that the details don't matter so much. Either way, the OCD approach to Irish is unhealthy at best.

Tá raidhse leabhair ann, cáighdéanach agus canúnach.

Féach ar Litriocht.com

Several hundred books are published in Irish each year; most vary very little from the written standard.
Most books published use the standard, except in direct speech.

When did you last visit litriocht.com, Kieran?
Since you are interested in Conamara Irish, can I suggest

Joe Steve Ó Neachtain

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1 &inc_subcat=1&keywords=joe+steve+%F3+neachtain&x=5&y=10&categories_id=&manufactu rers_id=&osCsid=38a84f8e14758bf9f926d025c0efcd11

Micheál Ó Conghaile

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1 &inc_subcat=1&keywords=mich%E9al+%F3+conghaile&x=0&y=0&categories_id=&manufactur ers_id=

Domsa, tá sé thar a bheith deacair Gaeilge Ghaoth Dobhair a thuiscint.

Don ardteist, cludaítear na 3 chanúint. Ach is teanga eile í Gaeilge Uladh im chluas.

Rud iontach é an fuaim atá ag cainteoirí dúchais. Ach an mbeadh na focail atá agam (luacháil bintiúir agus scaireanna thosaíochta mar shampla amháin) ag muintir na g? Ní dóigh liom é ach Aithnítear na focail seo faoin gcaighdeán oifigiúil.

Abigail,

I am sorry I got off the handle, but unfortunately it is not the first time when someone (I won't name him, as the person i gceist is obvious) goes on ranting that unless you are 100% fluent you have NO RIGHT to have ANY opinion about the language. I find this approach idiotic. Kieran has summed up it nicely - "fluent in what?". I can't become fluent before I know what I am supposed to study. I am one of those unlucky having bought "TYI Irish" by Ó Sé as a first book. There were many things I could not understand in the book ("It is recommended to pronounce such and such, but in the north/south/hell ... "). Then the grammar was really strange at time. I set out to browse the web. The more I read - the more I was confused. I took me some 2 years, ~$1000 worth of books to get to grips with this whole situation. And now I can say - I am NOT confused anymore. Tuigim é anois. Is féidir liom Gaelainn a fhoghlaim. And how nice it were if someone told me all those things before. Alas!

p.s. And one more thing, Abigail. The same person you are protecting now was LAUGHING straight into the face of native speakers 7 years ago on Gaelic-b list for their use of native idiom. He was MOCKING them. This is something I would feel is gross. So I will never accept sermons from such denigrating person, he has no moral right whatsoever to peddle his philosophies.

A Chionaoidh,

With all due respect, maybe it works in America, Britain - the countries with common law, but "don't worry about details" doesn't work in continental Europe. If I see a grammar book - I want a DEFINITE answer, and not cím/chím/feicim/ficim, or sa teach/sa tigh/ins an toigh carrousel. It is CONFUSING. I don't feel like learning and re-learning stuff over and over. It is nice to learn something once and for all time. Unfortunately Irish caighdeán which was supposed to resolve confusion, didn't solve anything. I wish someone told me that before, I would waste less time on understanding why you supposedly say sa tsráid, but sa sao(gha)l.

(Message edited by Róman on December 18, 2006)

Another one for Kieran

http://www.futafata.com/GugalaiGug.html

"As long as I can understand people, I tend not to dissect their speech."--Aonghus, 2006

Probably the single most significant quote I have read on this site! Maith thú, a Aonghuis! Would that others could be so practical in their approach.

With all due respect, maybe it works in America, Britain - the countries with common law, but "don't worry about details" doesn't work in continental Europe.

Since I've seen you making progress with your Irish, a Rómain, obviously such "details" aren't much of a distraction/impediment for you. They are for most learners.

My caution was meant for the majority of learners, not the talented few like yourself.

I just want to say that I respect boht Dennis agus Roman. They are both very smart and knowledgable. Sure and they both do things occasionally that irritate people but who doesn't. For a bit I wondered if Dennis disliked me but I figured out that he is just trying to push me to write more in Irish, a good thing to be sure. Sometimes Roman can get a little ... forceful and vehiment with his opinions but I think its because he's passionate about the language and so he gets a tiny bit carried away.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

Since I've seen you making progress with your Irish

The reason I make progress because I clear even the slightest detail where questions arise. Otherwise - no progress.

Please avoid the use of personal invective.

It is unnecessary, produces animosity, more responses in kind and, in the end, closed threads.

Caoimhín

Róman aontaím leat go huile is go hiomlán ansin!

This is maybe one of the big problems with the Irish language itself, and it has always been there.
I didn't really have a problem with it but i am good with languages, but i did notice it confused other people around me.

Perhaps teaching an caighdeán oifigiúil would be the best starting point and then once people are good with the language to then show them alternatives. Cad a cheapann sibh??

I mean i now have 14 ways to say 'as a result of' and 12 ways to greet someone as Gaeilge (i didn't even know what hello was As Gaeilge til i was 15, says a lot about the education system) .. What more could you want in life ;)

I have been watching/reading some of these posts for a few months. I have meant to contact the administrator several times about Dennis' behavior. I am not going to say anything about the Irish language on this post because it doesn't take any knowledge of the subject to see when somebody is being rude. In fact I am shocked that the administrator has not done something about hostile posts before. I think that Dennis has outrightly insulted Ríona on many occasions and it is downright embarrasing. I am not trying to "attack him"; on the contrary I think that this is a matter of manners, not opinions. So I publically ask that rudeness not be tolerated. Please :)

quote:

The same person you are protecting now was LAUGHING straight into the face of native speakers 7 years ago on Gaelic-b list for their use of native idiom. He was MOCKING them.

Hunh??

Meas sibh an ionann Róman agus Borat?

quote:

I am not trying to "attack him"

Ná bíodh imní ort, a chroí. Tá cead agat mise a ionsaí. Ní maith liom thusa ach oiread.

quote:

I figured out that he is just trying to push me to write more in Irish, a good thing to be sure.

Sin agat é go díreach glan. Níos lú Béarla. Níos mó Gaeilge.

Ni thuigim "nios"

Beir bua agus beannacht

Dennis wrote: Meas sibh an ionann Róman agus Borat?

I only hope Róman has not watched the film Borat and does not understand the ethnic slur contained in Dennis' words. Being East European does not make one Borat!!

Back to the issue:
I think Cionaodh is wrong - goodnaturedly wrong, I add - to say that BRN should not wish for a comprehensive grammar of Irish. I for one was not aware of the issue re: the usage of the future and the conditional that he mentioned. Of course, a slower but surer way of learning is by constant contact with native speakers, and then after a while you might get usage of tenses aright, but it would not be a bad thing to have more detailed references. Although a "self-starting" person will cope without - and "self-starting" is what is required for anyone wanting to learn Irish.

You know, I once learned Spanish, and I had a big thick Reference Grammar. I was A4 size and ran to about 600 pages. Every possible nuance of the Spanish language was explained in loving detail. Then I ordered the Christian Brothers' Grammar off the Internet, and to my shock it is just a pamphlet! Surely Irish needs a LARGER reference grammar than Spanish, given the greater difficulties for the English speaker! The CBG, if I can call it that, more or less gives a list of conditions for lenition and eclipsis and declension and conjugations tables, and that's it. So, of course, there is no room for discussion of usage of tenses and that sort of thing. As I mentioned in another post, it is quite unclear what the Past Subjunctive of the verb bheith should be, whether conjugated like the Imperfect or like the Conditional, and really such a thing ought to be crystal clear after reading the CBG, which ought to discuss usage and whether the tense is in decline and that sort of thing.

So: there is no proper Reference Grammar of Irish. This is just a fact we have to live with. Maybe one of us will write one one day!! Dennis, maybe you could help us all out by putting your knowledge of Irish down on paper!

Ni thuigim "nios"

An intensifier used with comparative adjectives.

Táim níos airde ná Seán = I'm taller than John.

Tá Seán níos láidre ná Séamas = John is stronger than James

Every adjective has a corresponding comparative/superlative form, which may look a lot like the adjective (ard/airde) or may be very different (beag/lú).

I think Cionaodh is wrong - goodnaturedly wrong, I add - to say that BRN should not wish for a comprehensive grammar of Irish.

There are several good ones, Kieran. New Irish Grammar (by the Christian Brothers) answered about 90% of questions that arose in my first 10 years of study. Several other grammars quite nicely fill in the missing 10% for me.

I was rather trying to dissuade learners like BRN from becoming overly preoccupied with this stuff. There are loads & loads of basics one needs to master -- which could take a part-time learner years -- before one need bother about any of the minutiae with which BRN is so fascinated. What starts out as a harmless curiosity for linguistics can derail your studies with pedantics.

quote:

Meas sibh an ionann Róman agus Borat?

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C, although I am not surprised - it is Dennis at his full bloom (for the make glory of America nation, I suppose).

If a person dares to ridicule "backward" dialects of native speakers, feels superior because he writes in caighdeán - what can I say? I feel flattered by his insults - as this puts me in the same league with the native speakers and this is what I ultimately strive for.

Cionaodh,

Prodding someone to write more in Irish can be done in a non-abusive manner. And again - do you think people don't write Irish when they are able to? If I can't express my thoughts at the moment in Irish - shall I wait for 5 more years to air my opinion? Language is a means of communication, first of all. And I will not write in Irish for the sake of the likes of Dennis to show off again unless I am sure I can communicate in it.

And again - do you think people don't write Irish when they are able to?

Yes, I do think that's the case. It's a lot harder to express one's self eloquently in a language we haven't fully mastered, so even the best of us is guilty of having defaulted to English for a sentence we might have written in Irish. I, for one, often feel my English sentences are far better crafted than my Irish ones. I have no doubt that others have done this, too. A bit of encouragement/reminder is always a good thing, i mo thuairim.

I took Dennis' "encouragement" to Riona in the same way she did -- and I think the way it had been intended. Perhaps it's a "nuanced" interpretation for English speakers but seems blunt to someone for whom English is a second language? Combine that with your already admitted inclination to ascribe ill-intent to Dennis, and we can easily see why you chose to take offense in this instance. Many of us who are more familiar with him (and not already biased against him) did not.

Scríobh Róman: The same person you are protecting now was LAUGHING straight into the face of native speakers 7 years ago on Gaelic-b list for their use of native idiom.

Conas dearfa "Statute of Limitations" as Gaeilge? This question is in no way meant to imply guilt on anyone's part. I'm under the impression that here in the States most crimes, except capital offenses, have a statute of limitations of seven years. I'm just curious as to what would be the statute of limitations if someone were to commit a linguistic transgression - could they be tried in a court of linguistic law seven years later? Or, is a linguistic transgression equivalent to a capital offense and it has no statute of limitations? (And I don't mean "Capital offense" as in forgetting to start a sentence with a capital letter. )

Scríobh Róman freisin: And again - do you think people don't write Irish when they are able to?

I absolutely think that we beginners don't write in Irish when we are able to. We need the encouragement from Dennis and others so that we feel comfortable in doing so and not feeling embarrassed by our mistakes. I have found that Dennis and others are very kind and patient when it comes to beginners like me trying to write in Irish. I also find that Róman is kind and patient when helping me, as he has done on numerous occasions.

quote:

"As long as I can understand people, I tend not to dissect their speech."--Aonghus, 2006

Probably the single most significant quote I have read on this site! Maith thú, a Aonghuis! Would that others could be so practical in their approach.

Bhfuil tú i ndáiríre chomh saonta? Más í an t-aon aidhm amháin ná go dtuigtear labhairt an duine, cén fáth a bhfuil tú ag bacadh leis an nGaeilge ar chor ar bith?! Labhair i do theanga dhúchais!

Is í an aigne, "An fhad agus is féidir liom daoine a thuiscint", a chuireann Gaeilge bhriste chun cinn. Tá cúpla cainteoir ar an suíomh seo a bhfuil Gaeilge bhreá acu, ach a bhfuil a chuid scríofa lán le botúin litrithe. Is annamh a athraíonn na daoine seo a chuid modhanna, ach bíonn eisceacht ann ó am go ham (Fearn, mar shampla, a bhfuil scríobh breá aige anois).

Tá dream eile ann a bhfuil an tuairim earraídeach acu go bhfuil siad ina ngaeilgeoirí, (Domhnall, mar shampla). Scríobhann na daoine seo i dteanga shóiteáin, ag meascadh focal ó theangacha difriúla -- agus bíonn an chuid bheag atá i nGaeilge acu lán le botúin.

Má theastaíonn uait Gaeilge bhreá a bheith agat, caithfidh iarracht a dhéanamh. Ná déanaigí gearán mura ndéanann sibh iarracht.

Faigh saol, a bhodach na coisbhirte.
Tá tú tar éis olc thar na bearta a chuir orm anois, ag casadh mo fhocla chun mí bhrí a bhaint astu.

Tá am chun daoine a cheartú, agus tá am chun an rud a scaoileadh tharat. Féach an comhthéacs inár scríobh mé an méid sin.

Bíodh do thost gaelach ionghlan agat, agus fáilte.

A Mhac an dlíodóir

http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=reacht%20na%20dtréimhsí&lang=2

quote:

Conas dearfa "Statute of Limitations" as Gaeilge?

Reacht na dtréimhsí.

Bronnfar triail chóir ar Dennis, agus crochfar go honórach é! (Agus mise ar a lámh chlé, gan amhras)

quote:

Faigh saol, a bhodach na coisbhirte.

Caithfidh mé saol a fháil anois nach bhfuil mé ar aon intinn leatsa, a Aonghuis? An bhfuil mé i mo bhodach toisc go roghnaím mo thuairim a chur in iúl, tuairim nach ionann do thuairimise?

[bodach an choisbhirt]

quote:

Tá tú tar éis olc thar na bearta a chuir orm anois, ag casadh mo fhocla chun mí bhrí a bhaint astu.

Tá áiféala orm nár léirmhínigh tú a ndúirt mé sa chaoi a bhí ar intinn agam, ach ní do do cháineadhsa a bhí mé seachas do cháineadh Jhames.

quote:

Tá am chun daoine a cheartú, agus tá am chun an rud a scaoileadh tharat. Féach an comhthéacs inár scríobh mé an méid sin.

Aigne Jhames a bhí á cháineadh agam, is ea gurb í an príomh-aidhm ná go dtuigtear an cainteoir. Mura scrúdaíonn tusa gramadach na labhartha a thagann as béal duine, tá an rogha sin agat -- ní rabhas ag tabhairt le tuiscint gur chuma leat (nó nár chuma leat) an chaoi ina labhraíonn daoine.

quote:

Bíodh do thost gaelach ionghlan agat, agus fáilte.

Aonghus ag roghnú cé a labhróidh, an ea?

quote:

Aonghus ag roghnú cé a labhróidh, an ea?

Ní hea, ach tusa:

quote:

Ní thabharfaidh mé freagra do theachtaireacht ar bith a bhfuil "Gaeilge" neamhghlan inti.

Actually, my post was all about communication. I have a book called "Contúirt sa Spáinn" and at times the future, the conditional and the imperfect are used when one would not expect it, like, for example the conditional to observe intent.

When I re-read the book, and find the better examples, I will start a new thread, and hopefully it will make sense.