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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (November-December) » Archive through December 29, 2006 » Suggestions for Adopting Loan Words into the Irish Language « Previous Next »

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I know this thread isn't going to make me very popular with some of forum's more erudite contributors, but I thought I would start I thread that would discuss appropriate loan words from other languages that should be included in the Irish language. It's my speculation that one of the ways to ensure the demise of a language is to limit its vocabulary to words originating only from within itself. On the other hand, languages that tend to grow and thrive rely on loan words from other languages. Even Irish, in its hey day, borrowed words from other languages, and vice-versa.

Of course there are situations were words from other languages should not enter into Irish, so I'm not suggesting the wholesale replacement of the Irish vocabulary.

Take for example, the word "zoo." This seems to be an acceptable loan word.

So, let the list begin! (or many it's ended already!)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4371
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.ehistling-pub.meotod.de/01_lec04.php#27

Ceithre céad bliain níos deanaí....

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 949
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think the best way is to take something poetic from older usage within the language that can apply to the new word. For instance, I've heard that carr for automobile comes from the older word for chariot (modern word: carbad, anybody know what it is in old Irish?). When Navajo were making a code for the US during WWII they used their word "turtle" for the modern "tank"

I think things like that are ideal. However, being that the words that will catch on will not be "official" ones but ones the speakers themselves choose to use "on the fly" I don't know how vain the hope is that the majority of speakers will be either well versed in history or well read enough to spontaneously come up with poetic translations - or even care.

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Mac Léinn Bialann, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis, interesting article - go raibh maith agat.

I wonder if it's too late to reverse the couse of history as far as English and loan words are concerned. For example, is it possible to eliminate the loan word restaurant from all English dictionaries and insist on only using "eatery" instead?

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2047
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 09:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I've heard that carr for automobile comes from the older word for chariot (modern word: carbad, anybody know what it is in old Irish?

Ní fíor. Bhí an focal céanna ar "chariot" sa tSean-Ghaeilge: carpat. Bhí an focal carr sa teanga ag an am sin freisin, leis an gciall "cart, wag(g)on".

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2048
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 09:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Má tá focal "fileata" uait, céard faoi "fidchat" na Sean-Ghaeilge?

Tá "fiodhchat" in FGB fós, leis an nod "Lit.".

"Gaiste luch" a thugtar air inniu.

So, cén fáth nach bhfuil "fiodhchat" in úsáid fós? Cé aige an bhfuil an freagra?

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Pangur_dubh
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Username: Pangur_dubh

Post Number: 149
Registered: 03-2006


Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 07:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Eatery? Hmmmm.

What's wrong with using Public House. Pub, even. They serve food which is usually quite good. Or Eating House?

Eatery sound very American to my ears. That said, it would be fine in America, I have no doubt. But I don't think Pub would work there. Eating House just might, though...

Is casta an rus é aistriúchán a dhéanamh! Especially from English English to American English and Vice Versa! :-)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4378
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 08:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Óltar níos mó ná mar a itear i bPublic house (nach ionann agus Teach an Phobail!).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eatery

Ach is fíor gur poncánachas atá in eatery ar phroinnteach.

Féach, is teanga atá ann. Tá dhá insint ar scéal, dhá leagan déag ar amhrán, agus seacht fichead leagan ar nath!

Tá chuile teanga fairsing go leor chun go bpiocfadh 'chaon duine an foclóir is ansa leis féin astu.

Bíodh do rogha agat!
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/restaurant

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Mac Léinn Tithe Tábhairne, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Aonghus: Óltar níos mó ná mar a itear i bPublic house.

Mar Poncán, beidh mé (I would?) míshona má téim isteach an bPub agus ni raibh Smithwicks ar bith!

Scríobh Pangur Dubh: Eating House just might, though...

Sea, is maith liom an bharúil Eating House, ach nach bhfuil House Gearmáinis ó thús (haus)? Ach, tá an ceart agat a Phanguir Dubh, bíonn an bia i bPub go maith coítianta, ach rachaigh me agus m'iníon a cloisteal (hear?) ceol tradisiúnta anocht ag bPub i Nua Eabhrac ach bíonn a hamburgers chomh "White Castle." An raibh "White Castle Hamburger" agat riomh - ughh!

There's a separate thread discussing stripping a language of loan words, but just starting with the word "restaurant," in English it seems like this whole business of stripping a language of adopted words might leave the language with very few words left to speak. I wonder how many words would be left in Irish if we were to strip it of all its loan words.

Well, so far the list of suggested loan words still stands at 1 wih . Maybe even this word should be jettisoned and replaced with ainmhi-ann (place of animals)?

FRC-GRMA

P.S. To all the French and German contributors of this forum, I love the words from your languages that have entered into English, so I don't mean any offense in my example above of "restaurant" and "haus."

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1331
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Mar Poncán, beidh mé (I would?) míshona má téim isteach an bPub agus ni raibh Smithwicks ar bith!

What you want there is the "Conditional Mood". The conditional mood of "bí" is "bheadh"; but when "bheadh" and "mé" come together, they usually change to "bheinn". An Foclóir Beag will give you a full list of its conjugations. Here's an English sentence and its Irish equivalent:

If I won the lotto, I'd buy a island.

Dá mbuafainn an crannchur, cheannóinn oileán.

You'll notice that while English uses the past tense form for "I won", Irish uses the conditional mood for both. Your original sentence should be something like:

Bheinn míshona dá rachainn isteach sa tábhairne agus nach mbeadh Smithwicks ar bith ann!

quote:

rachaigh me agus m'iníon a cloisteal (hear?) ceol tradisiúnta anocht ag bPub i Nua Eabhrac

Rachaidh mise agus m'iníon le ceol tradisiúnta a choisteáil anocht i dtábhairne i Nua Eabhrac

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4381
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gairdín na nAinmhithe atá ar na sean fograí i bPairc an Fhionn Uisce chuig an áit sin ar a ngairmtear anois an Zú, nó an Sú.

Berlin has similar situation. Several institutions were duplicated, so there is a Zoo in West Berlin, a Tierpark in East Berlin, and a Tiergarten (with no animals in it anymore) in the middle.

http://www.zoo-berlin.de/

http://www.tierpark-berlin.de/

http://www.berlin-tourist-information.de/cgi-bin/sehenswertes.pl?id=13452&sprach e=deutsch

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 112
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

If I won the lotto, I'd buy a island.


hmm... very interesting. In my neck of the woods we would say:

If I were to win the lotto, I'd buy an island.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2050
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 01:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

hmm... very interesting

Not interesting. We're not here to discuss English grammar. An dtuigeann tú?

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 02:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

hmm... very interesting.



Hmm, in my neck of the woods we would say:

Hmm... that is very interesting.

Tá an-bhrón orm, a Dennis, níor féider liom srianadh mé.

A Fhear na mBróg, go raibh maith agat as do mhíniú. There are so many of your postings, as with Dennis' and Aonghus' and others which are so helpful to me in learning the Irish language. Taitnionn mé le do stíl nuair a mínaíonn tu rudaí. An shíl tú a beith i do mhúinteoiracht riamh? Ba múinteoir an-mhaith thú.

I would like to take some of your postings, like the one above and your one on the correct usuage of the genitive posted previously and copy/paraphrase them to my Yahoo Groups website. I thought I would ask you first if you minded, and secondly, if you don't mind, could I and should I reference your postings here at Daltaí?

FRC-GRMA

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2051
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 02:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

níor féider liom srianadh mé.

ní féidir liom srian a chur liom féin ~ srian a choinneáil orm féin

Taitnionn mé le do stíl nuair a mínaíonn tu rudaí. An shíl tú a beith i do mhúinteoiracht riamh? Ba múinteoir an-mhaith thú.

Tá súil agam go mbeidh Fear na mBróg sásta an méid seo thuas a cheartú duit. Tuigim na habairtí gan dua, ach is féidir feabhas a chur orthu.

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Mack, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 03:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dennis, go raibh maith agat as do cheartúchan. Scríobh tú a cheartú duit. Ni thuigim.

Ceartú = correction, amendment;chastisement;adjustment.

Shíl mé gur mac léinn é Fear na mBrog. Mar sin, chuir mé ceist seo aige "have you thought about teaching?"

Scríobh tú freisin a chur orthu. Tuigim an focal "orthu," ach cé hiad nuair a scríobh tú "orthu", le do thoil?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 4385
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 03:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tuigim na habairtí gan dua, ach is féidir feabhas a chur orthu.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 03:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a Aonghuis. Tuigim anois an fath go úsáid Dennis orthú. Ar dtús, shíl mé gurbh é feabhas "problem" ach chonaic mé sa foclóir gurbh é feabhas "excellence." Anois, tá mé an-mhearbhlach!

ach is féidir = but it's able?

Maybe this stripping away of loan words in the Irish language isn't a bad idea after all. Why? Well if we take away all the loan words that have entered the Irish language from over the centuries, we'll probably have only a dozen or so words left and then the language will be a piece of cake to understand.

FRC-GRMA

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1334
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 06:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

hmm... very interesting. In my neck of the woods we would say:

If I were to win the lotto, I'd buy an island

Labhraím sa mhodh sin agus mé ag scríobh ar chlár plé acadúil, ach rollann "If I won" níos nádúrtha de mo theanga.

quote:

A Fhear na mBróg, go raibh maith agat as do mhíniú.

Go ndéana a mhaith duit!

quote:

There are so many of your postings, as with Dennis' and Aonghus' and others which are so helpful to me in learning the Irish language. Taitnionn mé le do stíl nuair a mínaíonn tu rudaí.

Deas an iarracht leis an abairt sin, ach seo a leanas an chaoi ina n-oibríonn "taitin". Nice attempt with that sentence, but the following is how "taitin" works:

John likes the dog.
Taitníonn an madra le John.

The verb, "taitin", can also mean "shine", so literally you might translate it as "The dog shines with John" -- but of course, it simply means "John likes the dog". Seo a leanas atá uait. Here's what you want:

Taitníonn do stíl liom agus tú ag míniú rudaí.

Nó, dá mb'fhearr leat "nuair" a úsáid in ionad "agus". Or, if you would prefer to use "nuair" instead of "agus":

Taitníonn do stíl liom nuair a bhíonn tú ag míniú rudaí / nuair a mhíníonn tú rudaí.

quote:

An shíl tú a beith i do mhúinteoiracht riamh?

Níl ionamsa ach foghlaimeoir freisin, agus níl fhios agam cén briathar is oriúnaí a úsáid ar son "consider". I'm only a learner myself, and I'm not sure which which verb is most suitable for "consider". Seo an iarracht a bheadh agam:

Ar mheas tú riamh bheith i do mhúinteoir?

Is í m'aidhm bheith i mo mhúinteoir i gceann cúpla bliain. I intend to be a teacher in a few years. Ach rud beagán difriúil ná Gaeilge a bheidh á mhúineadh agam. But I'll be teaching something a little different to Irish.

Ba múinteoir an-mhaith thú.

An fhoirm a d'úsáidfinnse ná: Muinteoir an-mhaith a bheadh ionat.

Go raibh maith agat.

quote:

I would like to take some of your postings, like the one above and your one on the correct usuage of the genitive posted previously and copy/paraphrase them to my Yahoo Groups website.

Tá fáilte romhat. You're welcome to. Cad é seoladh an tsuímh? What's the address of the site?

quote:

I thought I would ask you first if you minded, and secondly, if you don't mind, could I and should I reference your postings here at Daltaí?

Anois tá tú ag tarraingt ar mo chuid bróid! Now you're appealing to my pride! Ní ghortófaí dá luafá údar na teachtaireacta. It wouldn't hurt if you mentioned the author of the post.

Rud éigin eile. Ceapaim gurb í an difríocht atá idir "ceartúchán Vs ceartú", "mothúchán Vs mothú", ná go dtagraíonn an chéad cheann d'ásc áirithe, agus go dtagraíonn an dara ceann don chleachtas go ginerálta.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 2053
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 07:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh tú a cheartú duit. Ni thuigim.

to correct for you

ach is féidir = but it's able?

possible; "but it's possible"

chonaic mé sa foclóir gurbh é feabhas "excellence." Anois, tá mé an-mhearbhlach!

Ciallaíonn "feabhas" "improvement" freisin.

feabhas a chur ar X = to improve X

Cén foclóir atá agat?

Agus an bhfuil an-mhearbhall ort fós?

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 629
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maidir le daoine a spreagadh agus Gaeilge a labhairt;

In Eirinn, níl ard-chaighdeán Gaeilge ag fórmhór na ndaoine. Im thaithí féin, daoine tar éis na scoile a fhágáil bíonn siad ag úsáid "carr" "fón póca" agus araile.. Agus dar liom cabhraíonn a leithéid seo d'fhocail Gaeilge a spreagadh mar ;
- Tuigeann gach duine iad mar gheall ar an bhfuaim céanna leis an mBéarla.
- Bíonn gach duine sásta iad a úsáid toisc go bhfuil a fhios acu gur gaeilge cheart atá acu
- Is fearr le duine agus Gaeilge ar chaighdeán níos airde freagra a thabhairt leis an bhfocal "fíorghaelach"
msh - Cá bhfuil an fón?
- Mo ghuthán nó do ghuthán?

D'úsáid mé an modh seo le déanaí agus mé ag caint le slua daoine gan ach gaeilge na scoile acu. Bhí siad sásta na focail "fíorghaelacha" a úsáid tar éis dom iad a mhíniú dóibh.

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 114
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 03:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Labhraím sa mhodh sin agus mé ag scríobh ar chlár plé acadúil, ach rollann "If I won" níos nádúrtha de mo theanga.


Tá a fhios agam. As I have mentioned in previous posts, I don't think anyone's dialect in English is "superior" to anyone else's. I just happened to notice that the dialect that's spoken here in New Mexico is, in this case, a bit closer to the grammatical structure of the sentence that you mentioned in the Irish language. Apparently, I failed to communicate this point clearly, as it was misconstrued by both Dennis and "Mack". Oh well, that's what happens when ya quickly write a post on your way out the door.

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Fearn
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Username: Fearn

Post Number: 104
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"http://www.ehistling-pub.meotod.de/01_lec04.php#27

Ceithre céad bliain níos deanaí...."


Ar a laghad, a aonghuis, bhí conspóid na mBearlóirí i dtaobh an Bhéarla i mBéarla, seachas Laidin, is dócha.

Is rí-aisteach anseo ago bhfuil gach mac máthar Béarla anseo in ainm eolaí na Gaeilge!

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Mack, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith agat a Dennis. Tuigim anois, Tá Foclóir Scoile agam i rith an lae, agus tá Foclóir Bearla-Gaeilge de Ó Dónaill sa bhaile.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1339
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 01:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In Eirinn, níl ard-chaighdeán Gaeilge ag fórmhór na ndaoine.

Ní labhraítear Gaeilge in Éirinn, ach amháin i roinnt áiteanna a dtugtar Gaeltachtaí orthu. Lasmuigh de na gaeltachtaí, tá roinnt daoine a bhfuil Gaeilge acu a d'fhoghlaim ina n-am féin í.

quote:

Im thaithí féin, daoine tar éis na scoile a fhágáil bíonn siad ag úsáid "carr" "fón póca" agus araile..

Déarfainn go mbraitheann sé ar an múinteoir a bhí acu (nó an leabhar). Dá mbeinnse i mo mhúinteoir, ní mhúinfinn focail neamhghlana mar "fón".

quote:

Agus dar liom cabhraíonn a leithéid seo d'fhocail Gaeilge a spreagadh mar ;

Nílimid ar aon intinn faoi seo. Ní Gaeilge atáthar á spreagadh seachas teanga shóiteáin.

quote:

- Tuigeann gach duine iad mar gheall ar an bhfuaim céanna leis an mBéarla.

Ach cad í an aidhm? Más í an aidhm ná go dtuigfí an cainteoir, go ligtear don chainteoir labhairt as Béarla! Más í an aidhm ná Gaeilge a labhairt... labhair Gaeilge!

Rud eile: Má úsáideann siad focail Béarla, spreagtar iad smaoineamh as Béarla seachas as Gaeilge!

quote:

- Bíonn gach duine sásta iad a úsáid toisc go bhfuil a fhios acu gur gaeilge cheart atá acu

1: Nilimse sásta.
2: Ní Gaeilge atá acu ar chor ar bith seachas teanga shóiteáin

quote:

- Is fearr le duine agus Gaeilge ar chaighdeán níos airde freagra a thabhairt leis an bhfocal "fíorghaelach"
msh - Cá bhfuil an fón?
- Mo ghuthán nó do ghuthán?

Déantar an dochar cheana féin sula gcuireann siad ard-chaighdeán i gcrích. Beidh drochnósanna acu, ag smaoineamh as Béarla agus iad ag labhairt as Gaeilge.

quote:

D'úsáid mé an modh seo le déanaí agus mé ag caint le slua daoine gan ach gaeilge na scoile acu.

Ach sí an cheist atá le fiafraí ná cén teanga atáthar á labhairt? Gaeilge? Nó teanga shóiteáin?

quote:

Bhí siad sásta na focail "fíorghaelacha" a úsáid tar éis dom iad a mhíniú dóibh.

Nárbh fhearr go n-úsáidfidís na focail chearta ón tús?

Dá mbeifeá i do mhúinteoir Fraincise, a Dhomhnaill, an molfá dos na daltaí focail Béarla a úsáid ina gcuid labhartha? Ceapaim go n-aontódh fórmhór na múinteoirí ar domhan gurb olc an modh múinte é sin.

-- Fáilte Roimh Cheartú --
Ná húsáidigí focail Béarla agus sibh ag labhairt Gaeilge liom, le bhur dtoil. Ní thabharfaidh mé freagra do theachtaireacht ar bith a bhfuil "Gaeilge" neamhghlan inti.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 02:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Fhear na mBróg,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. The Yahoo Groups website is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishlinguistics

Even though the site has been in existence for some time now, I've barely gotten it off the ground, but hopefully in the next decade or two, it'll be of some value to the Irish-language community.

Thanks for you approval to copy your work and I will credit the original authors and sources - good idea! I need to spend some time comprehending your posting above, along with the others' postings.

I really enjoy the fact that many of you folks who are versed in Irish continue to post in Irish. I'm very happy to have the opportunity to "struggle" to understand what's being said, especially since it's in the context of subject matters that I participate in. I know that at times we need to communicate in English (for example, explaining a complex grammar situation) but the fact that a posting is in Irish removes the crutch of English which I find to be the biggest obstacle in learning Irish.

I have some colleagues here at work who have been very kind in helping me learn Spanish. And when we do speak in Spanish, even though I'm a beginner, we avoid the crutch of English altogether. It's harder that way, but it makes a big, positive difference in being able to comprehend and retain what I'm learning in Spanish.

So after I've taken the time to read and understand the posts above, including yours, I'll be in a better position to address the other points you make in your posting above.

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 03:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I wont join nything that needs a password on line as I get so confused. ike with Ebay, and this and that, one forgets it all.

Cén fáth nach bhfuil sé 'fón phóca'?



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