http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2309826,00.html


What I love about the times and all those British newspapers is that the readers actually think of themselves as 'intellectuals'. It comes as so suprise that such poverty of thought allows this as an acceptable piece. The warped thinking involved in this articles makes it the worst tosh I've read in a long time. Here are some of the best cuts from the article:


"People everywhere on this planet speak languages of relatively equal complexity. [What does that mean?]

"When they [languages] are spoken by small groups of people, in evolutionary terms they have outlived their usefulness and get subsumed by others and die [is a language an animal?]

"Theoretically, having as many people as possible speak the same language should be welcomed [familiar sound of the little britoner that so many irish people become in england]

"The problem is that in the 19th century, when colonialism was in full swing, people became more conscious of their nationality [how dare they!]

"France is an amazing country that has erected admirable cultural barriers to protect its language and its way of life. It deeply resents and fights the introduction of English words and phrases into official language use [after trouncing Breton, Catalan, Occitan etc]

"demands that resources be spent in the pointless translation of documents, adding unnecessary complexity to road signs and costing us enormous expense in time and money in the education system [governments waste money anyway, nobody reads gov docs in any langauge]

"If English as a language has won the battle of natural selection, that doesn’t mean the English as a people have won [yes sustained colonial support is 'natural selection']

(Message edited by admin on November 24, 2006)

(Message edited by admin on November 24, 2006)

Try this link (the one above would not work for me):

timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2309826,00.html

Sad article, but in the end, every group of persecuted humans has its collaborators, this is just the way of things.

Not sure what's going on with the hyperlink feature here... I ended up getting the same hosed-up result as BRN, even though it was posted accurately to begin with. Oh well!

A Brn you've got some good points here. As to language complexity in all languages though I do think that different aspects of each language are complex in their own ways. But other than that this article is foolish I'd say.

Beir bua agus beannacht

commas break the link mechanism in the board script.

Sin é.

Cut and paste the link. That should work.

Caoimhín

Of course, this might work too ;-)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2c%2c2092-2309826%2c00.html

Caoimhín

Domhnall's link worked fine on my computer, which then allowed me to read one of the dorkiest articles I have seen in a long time.

Gan amhras, BRN has aptly titled this thread!

I found a workaround before, but I've forgotten it. I think I used the html pre tag.

Like many oddball ideas, that article was originally a blog posting;
http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/08/03/can-we-do-without-irish/
and
http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/08/14/if-i-cant-speak-irish-does-it-mean-i-dont-qu alify-as-irish/

I've seen these before. It is interesting how Sarah actually writes back and forth with the people who comment on her blog, I've never seen that done before. Sadly I imagine that her attitude is common enough in Ireland, though I hear that a lot of people are allright with language preservation measures as long as they don't have to learn it.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I am almost afraid to open my mouth here because I know how people often react to my posts...but I do believe this brings up a very good debate.

I have "debated" this with a few people in the past, and I feel that it is worth mentioning here because I honestly believe there is a slightly "misguided point of view" out there about Irish how it has come to be in the state that it is in.

I have heard over and over how English is coming in and taking over because Irish isn't strong enough to adapt and overcome. The "survival of the fittest" concept is one of the main arguments as to why the number of native and fluent speakers has shrunk to the numbers they have...

And I am sure most of us here have also encountered this argument, or may even have had this thought also...but I would just like to give a little food for thought here.

This "evolutionary" point of view for Irish is incorrect in my opinion for two reasons. And anyone who uses this theory is will be faulted for two things "Not knowing enough about the history of the Irish language, and more importantly...not now knowing enough about Darwin and his theories of evolution"

Darwin himself said in his works that his model of evolution is based in the idea of a closed system with mutual competition...which doesn't really apply to Irish because English and Irish never mutually competed in a closed system.

To use Darwin's theory here...if we were hunting rabbits in the snowy winter, and English were white rabbits and Irish were black rabbits. The English rabbits would replace the Irish rabbits because the black rabbits would eventually be hunted or die out due to lack of numbers to bring back their populations.

But if you look at the history of the Irish language, that's not what happened, nor is that happening now. I think another one of Darwin's theories happened...the introduction of a more aggressive and superior organism...and no...I am not saying English is superior in any way.

I think it is more appropriate to think of the Irish language as a bunch of rabbits in a cage and English as a very hungry wolf that was thrown into the cage by an outside force (England). The rabbits never had a chance to compete with the wolf...those few that have survived have done so only because the wolf become too full to eat them and went to sleep. But the English language is still as sleeping wolf in Ireland, and it still has the potential to wake up and finish off the rabbits.

As I said, this is just one of many thoughts I have...but it is something you can argue if you ever find yourself in this debate with someone...

I can only hope Irish will be true to the nature of rabbits and start multiplying like...well you get the idea ;0)

the problem is, the society seems to view being eaten by a wolf more attractive than living as a rabbit.

Well, it's not just a wolf. The Irish took the wolf and tamed him into becoming the English Department's Best Friend: Yeats-Joyce-Beckett. They are the true giants of 20th century English literature.

Irish will only survive by becoming a giant Pookah.

Keeping with the reference, I would say that society doesn't find being eaten by the wolf more attractractive...rather they find the idea of keeping the remaining Irish speaking rabbits in a cage where they can be controlled more attractive.

As an outsider looking in, I often feel that Ireland on a whole isn't ready for the return of Irish. A good majority will tell you that they love the language, that they feel that the language is a vital part of the Irish identity and culture, and that they wish they could speak it more. So if this is true, and I am sure it is...one has to ask the question of why is the language having such a hard time?

Again keeping with the reference, I feel that is it because Ireland and her people are keeping the Irish speaking rabbits in a cage under lock and key at a zoo. A zoo that everyone is going to see, but goes home at the end of the day. Maybe if those rabbits were let out of the cage and allowed a little privacy...maybe we would have a faster "rebirth" of Irish.

I think the answer is simple, but hard to admit for those who love Irish.

Despite the beginnings in colonialism, English has been taken over by the Irish with a level of mastery exceeding that of its propagators.

And the Irish are proud of that. As they should be.

At this point, it's hard to imagine the Irish ever having the success in Irish that they have had in English.

There are a variety of reasons for this situation, some of which are world-historical.

The Welsh have been "lucky". They have not tapped into the English Weltgeist to the degree the Irish have--except in a roundabout Arthurian way.

Unfortunately, all this probably means that Irish will be forever a type of cultural "museum piece".

But anything can happen.