Everyone here has been eternally helpful , so I'm back for more. This is the same project I've been working on for the last two weeks, and these sentences are similar to the ones I asked for before, but they are not exactly the same. We're trying to get sentences that have similar structure to compare. So here they are:

1. John promised to go home.
1a. John promised Marie to go home.
1b. *John promised Marie Bill to go home.

I know that 1b is ungrammatical in English, but I was wondering if the structure was possible in Irish (while keeping the embedded clause nonfinite, changing the sentence to "John promised Marie that Bill would go home" defeats the purpose of our study).

2. John tried to send Marie home.

3. John persuaded Marie to go home.

4. John expected Marie to go home.

A gloss of what each word in the sentence means would be most helpful, because I don't speak any Irish. I’m appreciative that anyone is reading this, and any little help would be fantastic. Thanks!

1. Gheall Séan go rachadh sé abhaile.
Gheall * Séan * go rachadh * sé * abhaile.
Promised * Séan * would go * he * home

1a. Gheall Séan do Mháire go rachadh sé abhaile.
Gheall * Séan * do Mháire * go rachadh * sé * abhaile.
Promised * Séan * to Marie * would go * he * home

1b. Gheall Séan do Mháire go rachadh Liam abhaile.
Gheall * Séan * do Mháire * go rachadh * Liam * abhaile.
Promised * Séan * to Marie * would go * Bill * home

2. Rinne Séan iarracht Máire a chuir abhaile
Rinne * Séan * iarracht * Máire * a chuir * abhaile
Made * Séan * an attempt * Marie * to send * home

3. Mheall Séan Máire chun dul abhaile
Mheall * Séan * Máire * chun * dul * abhaile
Persuaded * Séan * Marie * to * go * home

4. Bhí Séan ag súil leis go rachadh Máire abhaile.
Bhí * Séan * ag súil leis * go rachadh * Máire * abhaile.
Was * Séan * expecting * would go * Marie * home

"abhaile" implies movement toward home (baile)

Thank you! I can't begin to tell you how helpful this is.

An interesting aspect I notice is that in sentences 1 and 4, there's no infinitival phrase, which also makes 1b possibly gramatical. Is there another way to write 1 and 1a using and infinitive (to)? Or is this the only way to get that meaning across? Very interesting...

quote:

An interesting aspect I notice is that in sentences 1 and 4, there's no infinitival phrase, which also makes 1b possibly gramatical. Is there another way to write 1 and 1a using and infinitive (to)? Or is this the only way to get that meaning across? Very interesting...

Strictly speaking, I'd say the answer is probably yes, but I'm not sure if anyone uses that form.

John promised to go home - Gheall John dul abhaile (might be a bit strange in Irish)
John promise Marie to go home - Gheall John do Mharie dul abhaile
John promised Marie Bill to go home - (I don't think Irish grammar can do this either, but a non-gramatical way might be: Gheall John do Mharie dul abhaile do Bhill)

The grammar in "dul abhaile do Bhill" is a different animal altogether. For example, in Irish, if we wanted to say: "I ate my dinner before Máire came", then we could say:

D'ith mé mo dhinnéar sular tháinig Máire.

"sular" means "before", but it's only used with verbs. There's another word for "before, and it's "roimh", but it's used with nouns, e.g.:

I left before the match - D'fhág mé roimh an gcluiche.

Another way of saying "I ate my dinner before Máire came" would be to use the same form as the infinitive, and it looks something like:

D'ith mé mo dhinnéar roimh theacht do Mháire.

In the first sentence, "tháinig" is a verb in the past tense. In the second sentence, "teacht" is a verbal noun.

By the way when reading Irish, you'll see words mutated all over the place. The most common mutation is the placement of a "h" after the initial letter, e.g. "theacht" instead of "teacht". You'll also see the placement of a letter in front of the initial letter, e.g. "gcluiche" Vs "cluiche".

(I'd should warn you that I'm not a native speaker, so you might want to wait for confirmation from someone more proficient than I.)

1b) John promised Marie Bill to go home.
Gheall Seán do Mháire Liam a dhul abhaile.

It's a legal construction -- verbal nouns can have subjects -- but not too common, I don't think.

(Message edited by abigail on November 25, 2006)

I am wondering if someone would please help me?... I want to put a inscription on a ring for my husband. I have looked up many words and phrases, such as, a ghrá mo chroí, but I would like to add my husbands name which is Andrew or Aindriú and I am not sure where it is grammatically correct to add his name within a declaration of Love. Thank you so much for any help!

I am also open to different Irish phrases! Thanks so much!

Well is his name Andrew or Aindriú?

I love you Andrew = Tá grá agam ort a Andrew
I love you Aindriú = Tá grá agam ort a Aindriú

Very nice. The fact that the verbal noun can take a subject is great! Now I'll move onto the next sentence.

What about

"*John tried Bill to walk."

or, if it's a better translation:

"*John made an attempt Bill to walk."

This is in comparison to "John tried to walk."

Is there a verbal noun or infinitve for "to walk" that can take Bill as the subject? I'm trying to get the meaning that Bill is the one doing the walking.

I think the way of saying this in English is:

John tried to get Bill to walk.

This sentence is too ambiguous to translate to Irish, as we'd need to know whether it means:

(1) John encouraged Bill to walk
(2) John assisted Bill in walking
(3) John physically picked Bill up and tried to get him to walk.

I think the most generalised way we can approach this in Irish is by using "cuir", which literally translates as "put", for example:

He made me angry = Chuir sé fearg orm = He put anger on me
I made it fly = Chuir mé ag eitilt é = I put it flying
I made Bill walk = Chuir mé Bill ag siúl = I put Bill walking

I tried to make Bill walk = Rinne mé iarracht Bill a chur ag siúl = I made an attempt to put Bill walking

I'm not sure how natural that last sentence sounds. We're on thin ice when it comes to phrases in English like "I made him do it", and "I got him to do it", as it may or may not be an order, and it may or may not be that you simply assisted or encouraged the person.

I wish you the best of luck with your project, but I forsee can of worms after can of worms... which will be frustrated all the more by your improficiency in Irish.

The paper is mainly about English, we're just researching situations in other languages, and I am frustrated by my lack of proficiency. The problem with this last sentence is that it's not possible to say as is in English, so there's no real definite meaning.

I'm trying to make generalizations about subjects of nonfinite verb phrases (infinitives and verbal nouns). Sometimes the person the subject refers to is ambiguous, sometimes it's not. I get closer and closer each time, but you're right about the worms.

Can you give us an example in a language where it is possible? Between us we know a fair few.

I think it is possible in Bulgarian, becuase of a lack of infinitival phrases. I also believe it works with some verbs in Korean, which has ambiguous and unspoken subjects in many emebedded clauses.

Okay, last one. I mentioned it before in another post, but I was focusing on another sentence, and didn't really want this one.

"John tried to walk."

I know you said above that "tried" can be ambiguous. Is there some translation for this sentence?

Rinne Séan iarracht siúl.

Thanks! "siúl" is walk, correct? Is it a verbal noun (nonfinite)? Or is it inflected somehow?