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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (November-December) » Archive through November 23, 2006 » Lip rounding on non-labial velar consonats « Previous Next »

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brn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 06:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

given the Munster form of Ó Tuama, can be Twomey, and in Búntús Cainte, ceacht a' 47, once hears the second man (the only time he appears in that book I think) for the sentances with the picture, pronounce 'coirce' with lip rounding.

'ch' is reported in Erris as often been lip rounded, passing into /f/ or /ɸ/ in 'chuaigh' as [ɸuə].

Is there evidence that all broad consonats were becoming rounded, at least in initial position, at one time in irish?

PS, they say "ceacht a' dachaid a' seacht" to my ears. Is this not two definite articles in one phrase, or is only one a def art?

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 538
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 02:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

BRN,


Tá an ceart agat, there is slight rounding of lips following certain consonants, but it is not phonemic. It usually happens following velar konsonants (c, ch, g). For more examples you can see Wagner atlas.

"Tuama" is NOT an example of lip rounding! There is a clear diphthong [ua] here, which is impossible to render faithfully with English letter, therefore this attempt with "wo".

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 09:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I agree, the diphthong would round anyway.

Looking at Thurneysen (p 109, section 173 in my edition), he mentions some bits and pieces about lip rounding involving development in irish consonants, so it may be an old thing

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 540
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 12:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

BRN,

Á, tuigim anois! The thing you have read in Thurneysen ceased to exist in 10th-11th century! There was a third class of consonants in Irish - broad, slender and labialised. But those are gone a millennium ago! So don't worry about them.

I was writing more on slight rounding of VOWELS following certain consonants, not of consonants themselves.

Ámhar mór ort

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 01:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"But those are gone a millennium ago! So don't worry about them."

That's the sort of ignorant, dialect specific garbage I'd expect from a Munster-lover.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 543
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 02:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

That's the sort of ignorant, dialect specific garbage I'd expect from a Munster-lover.



Huh? There are NO labialised as opposed to broad consonants in Irish not dependent on dialects. There are no such things for EXACTLY 1000 years that makes a MILLENNIUM last time I checked. If you want some help and advice on this forum I would strongly recommend you to change your arrogant and ignorant ways. YES, there are plenties of peoples around who know MORE than you do. And it does not give you a right to call somebody "ignorant" when it is YOU who is ignorant in this instance.

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 05:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Rómán,
the hook was in the line "But those are gone a millennium ago! So don't worry about them". 1000 years ago makes it not a dialect...

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 06:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So as it is not a dialect -it is a joke (reference to latter day dialect jealousy)

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 05:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Would an apology go amiss...

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 549
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 05:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is not a question of apology, I am not that sensitive. It is simply shock to me that I was trying to answer your question and in return I received personal assault and belittlement. So I just don't get it - what is the point of asking a question if you are not interested in the answer?

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 06:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No -let me explain:

I percieve that sometimes there is a tendency for many people to extend their preference of a specific dialect to that of a dislike of other dialects.

This in turn makes them jealous of other dialects getting air-time.

So thinking of this, I decided on a bit of messing by suggesting that modern irish and middle irish are just seperate dialects (swapping geographic distance seen in dialect studies, for temporal distance), and hence pretended to be angry at another example of 'partisanship' by your southern dissing of a more phonologically conservative (northern) dialect.

Thus, the 'hook' reference. The idea was that it was so propostrous to compare the two, that it would be obviously a joke.

I accept what you said, but the joke was not a good one...

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 688
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Romain a chara,

BRN was just teasing with you because of the "feud" between dialects, he wasn't trying to be mean. We all respect your knowledge and think that you know a lot about Munster dialect and Irish in general.

Beir bua agus beannacht



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