I think there was a discussion in Irish here awhile back about this. But I've recently heard some things about it and am wondering if it happened some time last summer, why is this issue coming up again. What has become of it?

Read about it here:
http://demiorator.blogspot.com/2006/11/forbidden-irish.htm

Some official-ish articles:
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/15122
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/15126

There seems to be some debate about whether she is a native speaker:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/77331

I'm still looking for stuff to pull up. Here's one as Gaeilge I found on Gaelport, but I have no idea what it says:
http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=1303&viewby=date

A lot of people seem to be doubting whether she was exactly arrested for speaking Irish, and what else really occurred at the scene. Does anyone know of an approved initial report like in a newspaper or something?

Some more stuff about the push to let Máire testify in Irish:
http://www.eurolang.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2685&Itemid=1& lang=en
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5194744.stm
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0719/irish.html

The stories seem to be sketchy on one point: what specifically is she alleged to have done that got her locked up? I find myself asking a question I often pose when reading news: "what is it they're not telling me?"

If it does turn out to be a simple case of abuse of police powers to intimidate a citizen out of speaking her native tongue, it's a black mark against the PSNI although that can't be anything new.

But I have to wonder whether perhaps she wasn't in fact behaving in a disorderly manner and then flipped a non-Irish-speaking cop a lot of attitude, spoke only Irish to him, and then put on the Victimhood Song & Dance Routine by claiming she was arrested because she spoke Irish. In any event it's all conjecture.

I remember this case, and yes...she was actually arrested and charged for disorderly conduct, not because she was speaking Irish.

While I am the first to take the side of an Irish speaker, I have to lean more towards the PSNI here because we see similar happenings all the time here in the United States, especially with Spanish speakers who claim to speak no English.

I do not know how it is in NI, however, the local police here are not required to speak another language and if the police officer feels that it is a safety issue, they can detain temporarily without charge until a translator can be brought in.

The real problem in the Belfast case was the manner in which the lady was treated...was she abused without cause. Or did the situation get out of hand and they responded accordingly.

As for all the trouble being caused because they are trying to decide if the court case should be conducted in Irish...all I can say is good for her and her lawyer. Way to fight the system ;0)

Well, yeah, we know what she was charged for. But I'm wondering what actually was the case. I'm very willing to believe that Máire did in fact behave indecently or whatever the case was, but neither can anyone deny that speakers of Celtic languages are often met with discrimination. But I guess that would be part of the purpose of the trial, to find out? I was in a discussion with an uninformed, relentless moron who tried to argue that the woman shouldn't be allowed to testify in Irish, as it was trying to create a bias to Irish speakers who might take part. Kind of akin to requesting a judge of the same race or sex. Right. *rolls eyes*

A Aindreas

I just recently found an item on politics.ie about this topic that I read lastweek interestingly enough. It was interesting and I would say worth reading though we don't get any actual answers from it.

It is possible that the PSNI define speaking Irish as disorderly behavior though it is certainly also possible that Maire was doing something wrong. If you aren't there right at the start then the story often gets changed around as it passes from one place to another. But if Maire is telling the truth and the officer did arrest her because her Irish got on his nerves then that is disgusting and revolting and he should get in massive trouble, he probably wouldn't though.

Beir bua agus beannacht

The case is still going through the courts in NI as Máire is insisting on her right to give evidence and hear the proceedings in the language she was brought up speaking, and habitually speaks. For this reason the case has been adjourned several times.

I have yet to see any evidence that she was behaving in a disorderly fashion.

Her story, as reported by Coleen Dollard who is a participant here and elsewhere can be read here:

http://demiorator.blogspot.com/2006/11/forbidden-irish.html

I'm not going to get into another slanging match about who is or isn't a native speaker.

"the proceedings in the language she was brought up speaking"

"I'm not going to get into another slanging match about who is or isn't a native speaker"

I was about to mention it, before you spoke, so I will anyway. She mentioned before that Bairbre a' Brún taught her irish, and as an adult. If this is the case, and she lies on an obvious area, how can she be taken seriously?

I think that's the whole point of the case...from what I read it basically came down to her word against the person who arrested her.

They claim she was being disorderly and they arrested her, and she claims that she became disorderly when they started arresting her just for speaking Irish.

They both admit she was arrested for her behavior.

Her defense is that she was arrested unfairly just because she spoke Irish. While the officer might have been annoyed with not being able to speak the language, there is no evidence that she was arrested just because she spoke Irish. As I said, it's a word against word...and in this case, I am leaning towards the PSNI side.

I mean, how would this case have played out if it had been any language other than Irish?

What needs to be hit on is a point I like to bring up time after time...and that's once again, Irish is being used as a weapon by people.

Granted this is in the north where the language is not as common as it is in the south, but it is still Ireland. How is it possible the northern court systems aren't able to accomidate the language very easily? Surely, the notion that one day an Irish speaker would come into trouble crossed their minds? English courts aside for a second, I believe they could have continued with any other language with little difficulty. They would have brought in translators on both sides and continued on...

The only thing I can think of is the nature of the case. If they do not consider the request of holding the trial in Irish, then they are proving the law's side to be guilty of the defendant's accusations.

I was brought up speaking Irish, and still had Irish teachers in school, who could fairly claim to have taught me Irish.


As I understand it, that is the case with Bairbre De Brún, who was also a teacher.

We will see the outcome of the case.

I don't see Conradh na Gaeilge supporting a Sinn Féin hi-jacking; my experience of Conradh na Gaeilge in Dublin is that they are, rightly, very wary of such things.

And I had to put up, while growing up, with idiots who assumed I was a provo beacuse I came from an Irish speaking family - and that was in Dublin.

i dont think the PSNI would have arrested her simply because she were speaking Irish as they are all so wary of acts like this. i often turn to Irish on a night out, and living in Belfast have encountered many dim wits asking why and throwing dirty looks, but so far i have never been annoyed by the police, not to say it doesn't happen of course. the one time i have been told to stop speeking my native tongue was in donegal town, when a member of the Gardaí told me to stop obstructing the peace by relating to him as Gaeilge!!

Apparently Máire is taking a counter case for wrongful arrest and assault as well. (this based on comments I've found in Irish and English)

There seems to be nothing on the PSNI side of the story, even in places like the BBC.

That suggests to me that they have some kind of case to answer; that seems also to be borne out by the fact that the case keeps being adjourned rather than simply thrown out of court or decided quickly on the evidence.

I would NOT give the PSNI the benefit of the doubt on this one. I recall several cases where people were actually arrested (in one case a minor) for refusing to say their names in English when being questioned by the RUC! Indeed, the RUC/PSNI have a very long, horrendous track record in Northern Ireland for being murderous, sectarian bigots.

In fact, I just read an article last week about a major international report that implicates the PSNI (formerly the RUC) in the murders of at least 74 people by Unionist death squads - not my idea of an impartial police force!

Here's a link to the BBC article from last week:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6118540.stm

"The shooting of three members of the Miami Showband - Fran O'Toole, 29, Anthony Geraghty, 23, and Brian McCoy, 33, after a UVF gang posing as an Ulster Defence Regiment patrol flagged their bus down on 31 July 1975"

It shows what a world of shadows we live in that when RTÉ reconstucted it, for a docuemtnary, it was obvious that the scenes were shot in Spring, from the dampness and stage of growth of foliage on the trees. If simple detials like can't be got right from a state based news programme, how do you expect the actual State to protect citizens?

"the one time i have been told to stop speeking my native tongue was in donegal town, when a member of the Gardaí told me to stop obstructing the peace by relating to him as Gaeilge!!"

Stories like these just make my jaw drop. (I know... naive American here.)

What are these people? Self-hating? Internalized anti-Irish bigotry?

How long ago did that incident in Donegal happen? That is in some ways more revolting than the incident that we are discussing here because it is in the Republic.

Since no evidence that Maire did anything actually wrong has surfaced, I've come to the conclusion that this PSNI officer, who hasn't said anything on the matter, considers Irish to be disorderly behavior. I can't say that surprises me too much. Regardless of how native of a speaker she is, this woman should obviously be able to speak any language she wants to in public. And as Aonghus pointed out everyone studies English and Irish at school, it doesn't mean they didn't know them before hand.

Beir bua agus beannacht

At first I'd say that there is an obvious inability by the PSNI and the courts to communicate in the native tongue.

How does the south compare to this? I assume the courts would be more accomodating, but are police officers down there required to speak Irish?

From what I know, which admittedly is little compared with others here, ...

You can have your case heard in Irish in court if you're in the Rep. of Ireland. The Languages Act should be making this easier now as it enforces that right. Te Garda Siachana (sp) are required to pass an Irish exam but that doesn't mean that they are fluent or even willing to converse with one in Irish. There is talk of making the small requirement even smaller or nonexistant in an effort to encourage immigrants to get involved with the police force. I obviously don't want them to loosen the requirements since I don't think that they are strong enough to begin with. I asked on here once about if there is a stricter requirement for gardai who are working in the Gaeltacht but I never got a straight answer due to a calapse of the thread into arguing and what not, resulting in it being closed.

Beir bua agus beannacht

It's one thing to speak your own language with your friends and so forth, but it's another thing to speak to the police in your own language.

If someone were to speak to me in a language I didn't understand, I'd be like "Are you stupid? Why are you even speaking to me if I don't understand you?".

If a member of the police force can speak Irish and is willing to speak Irish, then fair enough, but it's simply idiotic to speak to someone in a language that they don't understand, regardless of what the native language is or should be.

I myself can speak Irish decently enough, but if speaking to a Garda I'll speak English. Why? So that he or she will actually understand what I say. Speaking a language to someone which they don't understand is asking for conflict.

But by all means, if you want to speak Irish to your friends in public, then go ahead, and don't be shy about it.

If something like this had happened in Wales, whole troops of Cymdeithas folk would have ended up in the pokey.

http://cymdeithas.org/2006/10/14/4_arrested_at_language_protest.html#rhagor

They are militant about the dragon's tongue.

This could be the context in which Máire is operating.

If Conradh na Gaeilge is afraid of Sinn Féin, they might as well be afraid of Máirtín Ó Cadhain. And if they are afraid of Ó Cadhain, they should change their name to the English League.

That's I'm saying about this--he said in English.

Carchar am garu'i iaith!

Most people are justly afraid of Ó Cadhain.

However, I don't think Conradh na Gaeilge are afraid of Sinn Féin; merely aware that being tarred with the republican brush makes it harder to get things done.

it happened on the summer past and i was just as shocked as you all. the point im making is that, as far as i know, all members of the Gardai are able to speak as Gaeilge, therefore i was not trying to communicate with someone who couldnt understand. i just hope to God he is an exception among those he works with.

the incident in Donegal happened during the summer past, now so far i have never met someone in that area who doesnt have some form of Irish, and i have been living there every summer for the past seven years, previously Gardai have related to myself and fellow Gaeltacht workers as Gaeilge. i thought every member of the Gardai had Irish anyway??

quote:

Most people are justly afraid of Ó Cadhain.

Táim díreach tar éis Cré na Cille a léamh (bhuel, relatively "díreach" - cupla seachtain ó shin), so bhain seo gáire asam!


I've only been to Ireland once, briefly, and I'm not a big one for getting myself lost or into trouble - so the only experience I've had yet with the Gardaí was passport control in the Dublin airport. I didn't know if the officer there would have Irish or not, but I figured it was worth a try.

He looked a bit surprised (possibly because I'd just handed him a U.S. passport) but he answered immediately and we finished the conversation in Irish. He didn't ask me why, how I learned, or (apart from that first startled glance) act as if it were in any way unusual. He gets high marks for professionalism in my book, definitely; I wish now that I'd taken down his name.

Based on the reports that I have read, it is obvious that the PSNI were looking for trouble that night. According to witnesses, Máire was ordered by a PSNI officer to stop speaking Irish with her friends and was arrested for "disorderly conduct" when she refused.

I don't care to speculate on the colonialist mindset that causes some PSNI officers to become repulsed and angry upon hearing the utterance of Ireland's native language. Apparently, the centuries-old perception of equating the use of Irish with subversion, is still extant (as evinced by both the PSNI's crude behaviour and Aonghus's aforementioned experiences growing up) - those croppies just won't lie down!

No they should be still growing crops -for the big house!

"According to witnesses, Máire was ordered by a PSNI officer to stop speaking Irish with her friends and was arrested for "disorderly conduct" when she refused."

IF that does turn out to be the case then it is beyond me why there would not be a mass of Irish with pitchforks and torches marching down to the court.

Forgive my ignorance, but I have to ask - was the policeman in question Irish or a transplant from Merry Old England?

I doubt an englishman would recognise irish, so it may have been a more local PSNI officer, but you never know. Maybe the scéal is, "if it has an irish accent, and is not speaking english..."

"I don't care to speculate on the colonialist mindset that causes some PSNI officers to become repulsed and angry upon hearing the utterance of Ireland's native language."

This does sound like a problem - from what others have said though it seems as though most should be able to speak it. Still, it's understandable if he couldn't speak it, but to act in the way he did was abhorrent.

Hopefully the continuing implementation of tools like the Language Act will allow the culture in the six counties to catch up with the rest of Ireland.

Now you see -

Cearta Teanga - Cearta Daonna
Language Rights are Human Rights.

That's why, unlike Fear na mBróg, if a Garda ever stopped me and refused to deal with me in English i'd damn well do something about it.
It's the State's Duty and Obligation (Constitutionally and Legally) to promote the language and let Gaeilgeoirí deal with the State, An Garda Síochána as the State's police force, through Irish.
It's me doing the State a favour speaking the language before the country becomes a total replica of britain..It's me paying the Garda's wages through my taxes..So if a Garda has a problem with that I'll have the eejet in the news the next day. People will complain, debate will get started and guess who'll have a better service dealing with An Garda Síochána....

If we keep our mouths shut, or conform to the majority norm, like Fear na mBróg what right do we have to complain, what demand is there for us to be dealt with As Gaeilge, what future will there be for An Ghaeilge.
The answer is a much bleaker one than if we do something about it.

A Dhomhnail,

Well done you! You should definitely stand up for your right to speak Gaeilge in your own country and I should hope that if the Gardai didn't comply with you they'd be rightly embarrassed by the story in the paper the next day and the possibly insuing court case and thus they'd take Gaeilge and their obligation to its speakers more seriously.

I do think though that Fear na mbrog has the right to choose to speak English to the Gardai if he wants and shouldn't be put down and spoken of badly for saying he'd make that choice. You both should be able to conduct your business freely in either language without incident.t.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Fair Play, a Dhomhnaill. People fought long and hard over the years to get a language act and it seems an insult for Irish speakers not to then avail of it. We must demand Irish languages services off the State. If we do this there is no doubt but that it will have an knock-on effect on the promotion of the language as a whole. We have a right, as Irish citizens, to deal with the State through Irish. This is law and An Garda Síochána are on this earth to enforce the law.

Oh by god I am the LAST person a garda would want to refuse to deal with As Gaeilge..

I would kick up SUCH a fuss in the media, coláistí agus le Polaiteoirí it's not even funny.

Of course Fear na mBróg has the right to choose and it was meant as a simple relevant example of how Gaeilgeoirí can stand up and have our voice heard and generally strengthen the position of An Ghaeilge. Ní rabhas ag caitheamh anuas ar éinne, it's as much someone's right to be dealt with in English as the State's second offical language as it is An Ghaeilge mar an chéad teanga oifigiúil..

Domhnall

I'm glad that you'd kick up a fuss. I'd support you completely, though I don't know how much I could do for you since I'm not technically there, :(

Beir bua agus beannacht