Hi

Working on "Now you're talking" just now (Aonad 14) and I don't understand when I should use "go luath" and when I should just use "Luath"? The sentences in the book bother me. Why would I ask: "An dtagann tú abhaile luath?" and "An éiríonn tú go luath?" or can I use both "luath" and "go luath" interchangeably"? And if not, then WHY should I sometimes used the "go" and sometimes not? Ni thigim é sin. Go raibh míle maith agaibh as bhúr fragra(í) ar aon nós. Niamh :.).

quote:

An dtagann tú abhaile luath?"

Looks like typo. Should be "go luath", gan dabht.

I'd say it's more of an anglicism than a typo. In English, "early" is both an adjective and an adverb. In Irish, strictly speaking, the adjective is "luath" and the adverb is "go luath" but the influence of English is making people disrespect that.

Right, so what shall I say then???? :.)

tá sé ceart "go luath a rá", gan dabht

scríobh ó cadhain, 1949:

"tá sé luath a dhul a chodladh fós"

Déiridh,

so? You seem to miss the point.

"Tá sé luath..." = "It is late.." - in impersonal sentences there is no "go". It is completely different structure from "Tagann sé go luath/go moch/go déanach".

"Tá sé luath..." = "It is late early.."

---

luath [aidiacht den chéad díochlaonadh]
mear, tapa (chomh luath le giorria); in am nó roimh am (bhí sé ann go luath); moch (éirí go luath ar maidin).

An dtagann tú abhaile luath	do you come home quickly?
An éiríonn tú go luath	do you get up early?
An dtagann tú abhaile luath sa lá	do you come home early in the day

My intuition tells me that in the first and third sentence Aonghus quotes:

An dtagann tú abhaile luath?
Do you come home quickly?

An dtagann tú abhaile luath sa lá
Do you come home early in the day

it would be more logical to have "go luath" instead of just "luath". The function of "early" here is adverbial, not adjectival. In other words, it modifies a process, not an object.

But it's only a very subtle distinction. Let's not make a big deal of this, folks. Adjectives and adverbs have an afwful lot in common and they do cross over each other's territory often, in Irish and in other languages. There are even languages, such as German, where most adjectives and adverbs are the same thing.

quote:

An dtagann tú abhaile luath?

Tá sin ag breathnú ar an nós céanna lena leithide d'abairt thíos:

Tháinig sé abhaile fliuch báite.

He got home soaking wet.

Ach ar aon chaoi, maidir liomsa mé féin, ní maith liom "An dtagann tú abhaile luath?" ar chor ar bith, ní abróinn mar sin ar chor ar bith.

Ná mise.

Bhíos ag iarraidh ciall a bhaint as an abairt a thug Niamh83 thuas ag barr.

Maidir le huimhir 3, sé an meabhar a bhainimse as ná go bhfuil "luath" ag cailiú "sa lá".

Ach, mar a deirim, caolseans go n-abróinnse ceann ar bith des na habairtí úd.

Céard faoi:

Beidh mé ag dul abhaile luath inniu	I will be going home early today
Beidh mé ag dul abhaile go luath	I will be going home soon

quote:

"luath" ag cailiú "sa lá"

Tuigim. Bheadh sé ar an nós céanna le "deireanach san oíche".

M.sh. "bhí sé ag tíocht abhaile deireanach san oíche".

Sin é.

quote:

Tháinig sé abhaile fliuch báite.

gan amhras, but this example is beside the point. There is no way to use both go and modifying adverb. For the same reason "ana-mhaith" is used without "go" in Munster.

So you have -

Tá sé ana-mhaith anois (He is well and healthy now) vs
Tá sé go han-mhaith anois. (Conamara)

The reason for different treatment is probably that Conamarian "an-" is perceived to be prefix, whereas Munster's "ana-" to be a modifying adverd as "ró-" is.

sliocht Róman :
"so? You seem to miss the point."

mhuise, tá tú ceart, go deimhin. ní thuigim mórán rud! tá mearbhall orm, go minic. gabh mo leithscéal. tá mé mall ag foghlaim.

I never realized that the adjective prefixes, such as "an-", and "ró", could be looked at as adverbs. But it does make sense. They could. Interesting!

(Message edited by mbm on November 16, 2006)

"ní go ró mhaith a thuigim féin é"

Amhrán na Gaeilge, Peadar Ó Flatharta & Martin Joe Ó Flatharta (ó chuimhne an tagairt thuas, theip orm téacs an amhráin a fháil ar líne, ach bíonn sé le clos sách minic ar RnaG)

quote:

Tá sé go han-mhaith anois (Conamara)

Tá sé ag breathnú go bhfuil "tá sé an-mhaith anois" i bhfad níos coitianta agus nadúrthaí i gConamara ná an ceannsa atá tú a mholadh.

quote:

gan amhras, but this example is beside the point. There is no way to use both go and modifying adverb

Ní bhaineann sé le "modifying adverb", mar tá an abairt "Tháinig sé abhaile fliuch (ní *go fliuch)" (He came home wet) ceart go leor. Tá an úsáid chéanna anseo agus, say, in "D'éirigh sé saibhir go tobann (ní *go saibhir)".

quote:

ní go ró mhaith a thuigim féin é

This sounds artificial, in all living dialects AND dreaded caighdeán "ró-" abolishes "go" in front of adverb.

quote:

Tá sé ag breathnú go bhfuil "tá sé an-mhaith anois" i bhfad níos coitianta

That is what I thought before I got my hands on Buntús Cainte. In lesson 4 or 5 you hear immediately -

"Tá mé go han-mhaith anois". And buntús is pure Conamara is both pronunciation (all those Cháits, Dzia, istigh, anseo etc), vocabulary (ar chor ar bith, freisin, tinn (instead of breoite)) and grammar (tá mé instead of even caighdeán's "táim" etc).

And actually when I was browsing Gaelic-L/Gaelic-B lists I noticed that Conamara's speakers use "go han-mhaith" consistently whereas Munsters "an(a)-mhaith" only.

Agus fuctionally is ionann 'fliuch báite' agus 'mór millteach', 'beag bídeach', 'cinnte dearfa', 'te teoraí', 'te tirim', 'cruinn beacht' etc. etc. So, ní fhéadtar a rá go bhfuil 'báite' modified by 'fliuch' sa gcás seo (níl 'beacht' modified by 'cruinn' ach a oiread).

quote:

That is what I thought before I got my hands on Buntús Cainte. In lesson 4 or 5 you hear immediately -

"Tá mé go han-mhaith anois". And buntús is pure Conamara is both pronunciation (all those Cháits, Dzia, istigh, anseo etc), vocabulary (ar chor ar bith, freisin, tinn (instead of breoite)) and grammar (tá mé instead of even caighdeán's "táim" etc).

And actually when I was browsing Gaelic-L/Gaelic-B lists I noticed that Conamara's speakers use "go han-mhaith" consistently whereas Munsters "an(a)-mhaith" only

Bhí mé thar éis an cheist a chur ar chainteoir dúchasach as Conamara cé acu ceann is fearr, ina thuairim. Badh é sin thuas a fhreagra.

quote:

Tháinig sé abhaile fliuch

Somebody has evident problems with syntax. Adverb is a part of speech which modifies verb, not pronoun. So "go fliuch" would mean this:
He came "wetly", "in a wet manner" (whatever that means).

In this sentence word "fliuch" relates to word "sé", not to "tháinig", therefore, it is not an adverb, so the question about absence of "go" does not apply at all.

Whereas in the sentence -

Tháinig sé go moch.
It is not him who is early, but he came early, therefore it is adverb.

P.S. Yes, Aonghus, you are right, "luath" means early, by I don't use this word at all, as it means "soon", not "early" in Munster and for "soon" I use "ar ball" anyway, that's why I got mixed up. But I am not the only one who is confused. Word "mall" means "late" down the north, so I wonder how do they say "slow" then???

(Message edited by Róman on November 16, 2006)

quote:

cé acu ceann is fearr, ina thuairim. Badh é sin thuas a fhreagra

.

Does it mean that in the depth of their soul Conamarians understand superiority of Munster's way? .

p.s. No offence meant - just a joke

quote:

Somebody has evident problems with syntax

Somebody has evident problems with reading in Irish, so I write it in English:

fliuch báite - it has nothing to do with "modifying adverb". "go" is not used here because 'fliuch báite' - being an inseparable unit -refers to the subject. Under 'inseparable unit' I understand that 'fliuch' does not modify 'báite' in the same way as 'cruinn' does not modify 'beacht', 'mór' does not modify 'millteach', etc. Both parts of this unit are equally dependant of the subject, and, again, none of them modifies the other (say, 'agus' is missing).

quote:

gan amhras, but this example is beside the point

The point of giving the sentence 'Tháinig sé abhaile fliuch báite' as an example was to show that the use of adjectival group on its own is possible in Irish, and, strictly speaking, it is possible to say "An dtagann tú abhaile luath?" in the meaning "Do you come home and you are early?", though evidently there is but a relatively small group of adjectives in Irish that can function in this way.

(Message edited by Róman on November 16, 2006)

quote:

The point of giving the sentence 'Tháinig sé abhaile fliuch báite' as an example was to show that the use of adjectival group on its own is possible in Irish

And? You still miss the sense of this discussion. Nobody negates it is VALID and THE ONLY way to say -

Tagann sé abhaile tuirseach? not go tuirseach.

But again, what we are talking about - are ADVERBS, not adjectives. And "tagann sé fliuch báite" gives example of ADJECTIVES, modifying "sé" not "tagann"! You seem not to grasp such a simple thing.

In Russian you also say -

Он пришёл домой мокрый мокро и уставший устало.
Compare -
Он пришёл рано ранний.

It is a very OFTEN problem for English people. The mixing up of "minic" vs "go minic" is well documented, just because there is no English equivalent of "minic". The same applies to "luath" vs "go luath" as again there is only one word in English - "early". It is too often no deep hidden idioms but trivial Béarlachas that we are dealing with. Sad, but true.

(Message edited by Róman on November 16, 2006)

"It is a very OFTEN problem for English people. The mixing up of "minic" vs "go minic" is well documented, just because there is no English equivalent of "minic". The same applies to "luath" vs "go luath" as again there is only one word in English - "early". It is too often no deep hidden idioms but trivial Béarlachas that we are dealing with. Sad, but true."

Probably means I won't get to understand how to use either until I am fluent at the language and it just gets a fluent, mechanical thing I can't explain to other people. It's often like that anyway, that you intuitively KNOW how something works in your language but can't eplain it with rules to others. I guess I won't be able to explain the dfference between "Luath" and "Go Luath" either, really, when I am fluent at Ulster Irish... some day. :.). ALSO, something I had forgotten to say and that indicates it is NOT a typo of the book is that on the "Now you're talking" tapes, the speajers make the exact same distinctions. So definitely not a typo of the book then.

It would seem to me, rather much, on the bog end of the spectrum:

D'eirigh sé go luath (adverbial usage)

An rabh sé luath? (adjective usage)


Thainig sé go minic

Ceapaim go rabh sé anseo minic


I guess if it was not pointed out by such 'scians' as we have in this online organ, one would be more likely to err

Maybe "go mbíodh" is better (used to be)

in Hiberno English the way to say it would be :

"I think he would be here often"

If that held in Irish

"Ceapim go mbeadh sé anseo minic"

So woudl you expect a diff in Irish in meaning?

"Ceapim go mbíodh sé anseo luath"

...used to be here quick (get here quick, or for a short time here)

"Ceapim go mbíodh sé anseo go minic"

...used to be here quickly [from elsewhere] (use to come here quickly on horseback from another place)

quote:

Probably means I won't get to understand how to use either until I am fluent at the language and it just gets a fluent, mechanical thing I can't explain to other people. It's often like that anyway, that you intuitively KNOW how something works in your language but can't eplain it with rules to others. I guess I won't be able to explain the dfference between "Luath" and "Go Luath" either, really, when I am fluent at Ulster Irish... some day. :.). ALSO, something I had forgotten to say and that indicates it is NOT a typo of the book is that on the "Now you're talking" tapes, the speajers make the exact same distinctions. So definitely not a typo of the book then

It is not a big problem, do not be so easily discouraged. Since it is Ulster Irish that you study I think it is better to wait for Lughaidh's answer, as he's a maven in it.

Anyway, the general rule is that you use words without 'go' in the phrases with the verb 'tá': tá sé luath 'it's early', but you use 'go' when it is some other verb: d'imigh sé go luath 'he left early'. This rule works in 97% of cases. Still I insist on receiving an answer from Lughaidh first.

Róman,

I'm not happy of that futile discussion with you, because it won't get me anywhere. I've explained my point of view two times already. If it is still unclear to you, and it still leaves you doubtful of my competence in the topic, I am sorry for you. I'm not inclined to waste my time with you, as I don't feel any feedback or even a tad of respect.

quote:

I'm not inclined to waste my time with you

Don't expect respect after such writing.

Re topic - even if you repeat your WRONG POV 7 times it does not become valid. So this discussion is really futile, as you don't understand what is the difference between adjective and adverb. No point really to discuss anything further in this case.

I don't understand adverbs VS. adjectives, but I do know that the both of you ought not to have such strong feelings about it as to be unkind or have disrespect for each other over it. You're both very smart and clever and know a lot about Irish and I really think that both of you are important to us all here.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Scríobh Róman,

But again, what we are talking about - are ADVERBS, not adjectives. And "tagann sé fliuch báite" gives example of ADJECTIVES, modifying "sé" not "tagann"!

Ceist agam. Adverbs can modify verbs or adjectives. Although I see that "báite" does not modify the verb "tagann" in the example above, is it possible that "báite" is modifying the adjective "fluich?" If I understand correctly, the above example is translated as "He comes [home] soaking wet." So, my question is, what is "soaking" (báite) modifying? I think that it's modifying wet, since it tells us how wet he is. So since it's modifying an adjective, that makes "báite" an adverb.

Perhaps I'm correct that in the English translation "soaking" is an adverb, but that in the original Irish sentence, "báite" is an adjective.


FRC-GRMA

quote:

Although I see that "báite" does not modify the verb "tagann" in the example above, is it possible that "báite" is modifying the adjective "fluich?"

Is maith an cheist seo. But the answer is NO. First of all, modifying adverb in Irish always precedes modified adjective. So in this case you might speculate if "fliuch" is adverb, as "báite" cannot be adverb due to its place in the sentence. Anyway, in this particular example both "fliuch" and "báite" are adjective modifying word "sé". As you know in Irish there is no word "agus" between 2 adjectives ever. You can see it in any sentence -

Tá sé fuar tirim. Tá an bhia fónta so-bhlasta etc.

The fact that "báite fliuch" is tautological is nothing new. In many languages it is a common way to strongly express an idea - to repeat synonimous words. In some cases it goes so far that words which do not mean anything are invented, just for the sake of emphasis. Such meaningless words usually rhyme with the word being emphasised. Consider this examples from Hungarian - icike-picike "very small", kutya-mutya "puppy". In those only first word is meaningful, the second is just a rhyming emphasis. In Irish you can see such development in children's rhymes - "ici pici", "gugalaí gug" and so on.

Just to cut short - "fliuch báite" are both adjectives modifying "sé". There is no word "agus" between them as there is never such word in good Irish between adjectives, and the reason there are repeating each other - to emphasise.

Folks,

this exchange is/was extremely revealing.. despite two sets of protestations, it seems the question is by no means one that is simple..

K

Go raibh maith agat a Róman. I really enjoyed reading your response, not only the explanation but the rhyming examples. When first learning Irish, I was surprised to see that many beginner's books totally avoid the subject of adverbs. A student like me could easily get the wrong impression that, except for prefixes like "an" and "ro," they don't even exist! .

P.S. I agree with Riona that both you and Peter are very smart and have a lot to offer as contributors to this forum. I appreciate the assistance that I've received from both of you. Go raibh míle maith agaibh!

Seo agat cúpla ceann eile, regular clichés in Irish, which is esp. fond of uaim (alliteration):

dubh dóite = black burnt

Tá mé dubh dóite de. = I'm fed up with it / sick of it.

tinn tuirseach = sick tired

beag bídeach = little tiny

críon casta = aged twisted = old and gnarled

Agus i nGaeilge na hAlba:

seachd seann sgìth = seven old tired = sick & tired

Tha mi seachd seann sgìth dheth.

Ya, relieve the man here! Make up!

From another thread:

""Re: luath vs. go luath argument

téarma go maith: goodly term vs. téarma maith: good term""

IN Robin hood, they are all into their 'goodly men in tights' and all that.

If my reading of the above is correct, we CAN be OK about when to use 'go', if we remind ourselves what it would be (artifically) in English, *and* take into account grammar na Gaeilge.

Ex:

1. general rule: go + adj = adverbial meaning
2. genral rule: noun + adj =modified noun with qualitative 'aspects'
3. two or more adjs following a noun in Irish cannot be cleaved, ("the red man quickly ran red" /"rinne an fear rua dearg go tapaigh") and they can add colour to each other or give sytlistic empasis ('gugalaí gug')
5. In sentances where adv and adj
are in proximity, the first must be constrained to be the adjverb ("Rinne sé an balla luath bán"/ "he made the wall quikly white"). This rule is not fully in consonance with .1
6. If we use english as a reference frame, we must assume that a) adding 'ly' to an adjective (good/ly, quick/ly, green/ly) always makes it have a strong adv vs adj distinction (so is goodly an adv? "Those goodly men" -apparently not), b) irish grammar can be seocnd guessed by this method -which is wont be

I could go on, but I fear it all sounds like shite!

quote:

but I fear it all sounds like shite!

Agus an ceart ar fad agat!

(Message edited by dennis on November 19, 2006)