A chairde,

As some of you know, there's a Yahoo group presently learning Cois Fhairrge Irish via Mícheál Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish. It has become inactive lately, and just today its owner transferred the group to me and then quit the group.

So as the new "owner" of that group, I'd be pleased to welcome new members who'd like to try their hand at Learning Irish -- please consider this an invitation.

While I have an interest in this dialect, It's not one of my specialties. I'll do what I can to reinvigourate the group's efforts and provide direction, but I'd be very glad of new members who may have more specific knowledge about this unique dialect. So if you're an accomplished speaker of this dialect with no need to work through this book, I'd still like to invite you along in case questions arise for which I have no ready answers.

Anyone (whether learner or expert) who has an interest in this dialect will be welcome:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coisfhairrge

A Chionaodh,

Go raibh maith agat as an cuireadh. Taitníonn do mhúinteoireacht mé i gcónaí.



Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin - go raibh maith agaibh.

A Mhic Léinn,

What might seduce you into becoming "Mac Léinn na Gaelainne"? ;-)

Scríobh Róman: A Mhic Léinn,

What might seduce [entice?] you into becoming "Mac Léinn na Gaelainne"? ;-)

Sílim go bhfuil tú ag caint faoi Canúint Mhumhan, nach bhfuil? Mar sin, sílim gur teanga dheacair é an Ghaeilge i gcoitinne, ach déanann Canúint Mhumhan an Ghaeilge gur cosúil go é easca!

Translating my attempt above: I think that you are talking about the Munster dialect. As such, I think that Irish is a difficult language in general, but the Munster dialect makes is seem easy!

Ach mas dhéanann é thú sasta, usaidfidh mé é cupla uair. Ainm cleite eile nua!


FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin - go raibh maith agaibh

cén fath a mbíonn sí an-dheacair?, a mhic

I dtosach, tá an amsir caite is deacair, i mo bharúil uiríseal. Caithfidh mé réasúin eile a shíl, ní cuimhin liom anois. An bhfuil daoine eile go shíl Canúint Mhumhan nios deacair?



Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin - go raibh maith agaibh

Scríobh MLnG:

Taitníonn do mhúinteoireacht mé i gcónaí.

Ná habair é, a Mhic. Though as I mentioned above, CFh Irish isn't my specialty, so I see my role more as a facilitator/coordinator here. I hope others with better knowledge of that dialect will join us to help with the "technical" (dialect-related) questions that arise.

BTW, since you're welcoming corrections with the FRC -- the verb taitin when used without le means "shine" (i.e. taitníonn an ghrian gach lá). In the quote above you should say "Taitníonn do mhúinteoireacht liom i gcónaí".

Scriobh Cionadh: since you're welcoming corrections with the FRC

Tá cinnte, I absolutely, positively, without a doubt welcome corrections - thank you for pointing out that I need to have "liom."

I've been trying to use at least some Irish in each of my posts, so it's neat when I can get helped along. (Dennis, if you're reading this, "neat" means "great")

Ceist agam: Maybe this is better to ask on the Cois Fhairrge group, ach cad ceacht atá muid ag foghlaim?

Le meas,

Mac Léinn na Míosa

P.S. Ní mé Mac Léinn na Míosa go cinnte, ach nuair bhí mé gasúr, ní raibh an teideal againn sa scoil. Ba trua é sin!


Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin - go raibh maith agaibh.

Cionaodh, will you be posting up audio files for people to listen to as you do at "Progress in Irish" group?

Those audio files are a gargantuan help.

Cionaodh, will you be posting up audio files for people to listen to as you do at "Progress in Irish" group?

Those audio files are a gargantuan help.

The audio files we use in the PII group were done by instructors/professors to assist learners using Progress in Irish, which was not published with accompanying recordings. In contrast, the Learning Irish course is still in print, and the accompanying audio is copyright protected.

If you've got the book but no audio material, it can be bought separately. Previously it was sold in cassette format, but I hear the CD version has finally been released.

A Chionaodh,

Do you know when Learning Irish, with CD's, will be available in stores or over the internet? I assume "released" means that it will be available shortly?

The publisher says it's available as of 30 October, though their page still calls it a "pre-order" (perhaps their web designers are being pokey about updates):

http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=0300121776

Go raibh maith agat, a Chionaodh. I was just about to get a copy of LI with cassettes, but now I'll be sure and get it with the CD's.

Fair plé duit, a Chionaodh. Any ideas why the owner gave ownership to tosa tú féin?

quote:

ach cad ceacht atá muid ag foghlaim?

Le meas,

Mac Léinn na Míosa

P.S. Ní mé Mac Léinn na Míosa go cinnte, ach nuair bhí mé gasúr, ní raibh an teideal againn sa scoil. Ba trua é sin!

My corrections - sort of:

Cén ceacht atá á fhoghlaim [againn]? (you can skip "againn" altogether)

Small explanation. Simple questions like:

Cén ceacht a fhoghlaimímid?

are possible only for "non-continous" tenses. It is impossible to make a question according to this pattern for continuos times like "táim ag + verbal noun", "bím ag + vn", "bhíos ag + vn" etc. In those cases you must use fancy "Tá sé á fhoghlaim [agam]" pattern.

Ní Mac Léinn na Míose mise go cinnte, ach nuair a bhí mé i mo ghasúr, ní raibh an teideal seo againn sa scoil.

FRC

Is mise 7rl

Fair plé duit, a Chionaodh. Any ideas why the owner gave ownership to tosa tú féin?

Perhaps thinking he lacked a better candidate?

Since Cois Fhairrge Irish isn't a specialty of mine, I'd gladly give the reins to someone more qualified, if you've anyone in mind. I've certainly got plenty on my plate already.

Go raibh maith agat a Róman.

Ceist, le do thoil: you indicated "againn" above as optional. In my sentence above, "..ach cad ceacht atá muid ag foghlaim?" I was trying to say "what chapter are we studying."

I need to read and re-read your explanation of non-continuous versus continuous verbs so it gets through my skull. When you indicate "againn" above as optional, does that put it in the past tense, that is, "what chapter have we been studying?" I don't mean to be nit-picky, but I would like to understand the construction with "againn" better.

I also appreciate the correction "i mo ghasúr." I don't know what I was thinking, trying to link two nouns without the copula.

A Mhic Léinn,

Tá an-áthas orm that you have found my explanation useful. I will try to expand that you fully understand where "á fhoghlaim" comes from.

As you might well know there 2 types of tenses in Irish. The first ones are done by the sole means of verb itself, e.g. foghlaimím, d'fhoghlaimíos, foghlaimeod. Such tenses usually mean habitual action, .i. something you do usually, but not necessarily at the moment of speaking/ reference.

The second type are so called "progressive" types, or speaking in grammar terms - "continuous". These are actions produced at the time of speaking. It is speculated that this distinction has been "imported" into English from pre-Saxon Britain's Celtic language (most probably Welsh).That is why, in English you make clear difference between "I read" (1st type) and "I am reading (now)" (2nd type).

The snag (you might say - devil) is in details. The second type of tenses is produced with the help of verbal noun + preposition ag. So far - so good. I hope that I didn't say anything new to you yet. The trouble starts when you want to append object to those tenses. In the first type of tenses - no problem. You take a noun and tuck it into the end of sentence -

Foghlaimím ceacht. - I study..
D'fhoghlaimíos ceacht. - I studied ...
Foghlaimeod ceacht. - I'll study ...

Now let's contemplate what happens in the second type of tenses. As they are done with verbal noun you can't simply repeat what you have just done. One noun CANNOT govern another noun in a direct form - this is valid not only for Irish, it is a property of all languages that have cases. Without some case two nouns are not "connected". You need preposition or genitive case. This is exactly what happens in Irish -

Táim ag foghlaim ceachta. - I am studying ...
Bhíos ag foghlaim ceachta. - I was studying ...
Bead ag foghlaim ceachta. - I will be studying ...

People don't like genitive - you need to know declensions, so at some point of history another "way out" was invented, sort of "passive voice". Instead of saying "I am studying a lesson", I might well wish to say "A lesson is being studied by me". In this case you avoid genitive altogether. So the second set can be re-written:

Tá ceacht á fhoghlaim agam.
Bhí ceacht á fhoghlaim agam.
Beidh ceacht á fhoghlaim agam.

Note the conspicuous absence of genitive ending now.

Let's go back to making questions. The question word "cad" is a direct case word which can replace nouns in direct cases, so for the first set you have:

Cad a fhoghlaimíonn tú?
....

For second set you can't make question at all! For that you need genitive of "cad" and such form even doesn't exist!

For third set you have -

Cad atá á fhoghlaim agam?

And last remark (are you still with me? ) - you usually skip "agam", "agat" ... in such sentences unless you die for precise specification who is studying. In normal situation it is suffices to say that "dishes are washed", "lesson is being done" and so on.

Is mise 7rl

(Message edited by Róman on November 04, 2006)

Go raibh maith agat a Róman - that's quite informative! I think I've got it; now I hope I can retain it! Looks like I'm also getting to learn some Munster while I'm at it. - thanks!

A Mhic Léinn,

Ná habair é!

Is mise 7rl

quote:

cad ceacht atá muid ag foghlaim?

Is aisteach go ndearna sibh dearmad ar:

Cén ceacht atá muid a fhoghlaim?

An chaoi an-choitianta go deo atá ar a leithéide de cheist.