Well, I was going through Dennis's very cool word-of-the-day site and I came across this amusing word, which I trust Dennis will not fault me for quoting fully:

Word: broim (BRIM, BRIME)

Meaning: broim = fart

Now, I have no problems remembering how to pronounce Irish consonants but the vowell-combinations perplex me to distraction, and this is a perfect example of a combination I simply don't understand at all. So I'm hoping somebody can perhaps explain: what function does the o serve here? Specifically, if the word were written "brim," would it not be pronounced the same?

Now, I'm off to carve pumpkins and will eagerly anticipate an answer!

quote:

if the word were written "brim," would it not be pronounced the same?

First off, a Dhomhnaill, the combo "bri-" would indicate a slender 'r', while the combo "broi-" shows that the 'r' is broad. In well-spoken Irish, the two sound quite different.

The second part is a bit trickier. The vowel combo 'oi' can be realized a number of ways, depending partly on which consonants follow it, and partly on dialect. For example:

as /e/ (that's 'e' as in 'bed') in troid, oideachas

as /i/ (that's 'i' as in "bid") in roimh

as /o/ (that's roughly as in "court") in doirt

as /ai/ (that's 'y' as in "shy") in moill, broim

NB: I have Conamara-flavored pronunciation to a large extent. I say "oideachas" with an initial /e/. People with Munster pronunciation habits say it wih initial /i/. And they say "moill" with /i:/ and a strong w-glide: MWEEL (final 'll' as in "million", more or less, in all dialcets). And so on...

Okay... I'm beginning to see some light. Thank you!

Can you expand on the difference in pronunciation between a slender R and a broad one?

Actually, I wonder if there's a website somewhere that has audio files of those sounds... I'm pretty sure there is. Must go look.

A Dhomhnaill,

Fios Feasa site had very good recordings of words where you can here broad and slender "r".

Is mise,
Róman


p.s. A Dhonnacha!

We also have [e] pronunciation - but just in a couple words - "oifig", "oibre", "croiceann".

Is mise etc.

quote:

as /ai/ (that's 'y' as in "shy") in moill, broim

I'm sure Dennis just forgot to mention that 'broim' is pronounced with /ai/ in Munster (not everywhere), but with /i:/ in Connemara. And I found the translation "breaking wind" for "broim" in Connemara :)

quote:

I'm sure Dennis just forgot to mention that 'broim' is pronounced with /ai/ in Munster

Sa Rinn only. Everywhere else - [i:]

Is mise etc

Donal,
there is a good reason why your pronounciation is defective -you are confusing the orthographic structuring of vowels and glides in proximity with actual standalone sounds. You need to see what is the vowel,a nd what is the glide. If you kow the vowel and know the consonant, the glide with occur correctly.

I doubt you will approximate the slender r from hearing it, in my opinion. I worked out how to make it, but that was because I heard there was a difference there. Trying to make a sound while not been able to hear it can be annoying. For myself, the voiced dental fricative in english is like that -I know how make it, but it sounds like a cross between a z and a d -not apparently correct.

There was a type of slender d in Munster (I think) that was like slender r, just pushed more forward in the mouth, with the tip of the tongue on the alveolar ridge, but the tosach pushed into the post alveolar space and corp touching the hard palate. Some Polish thought my slender r was like a d, altho one can make a number of them. Making the slender r would be less advanced (forgive me, I'm not a linguist, so retracted/advanced I'm not sure are the correct terms).

I'm going to draw something in a paint programme and post it her, to see what people think

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgk36dcn_2hh5xm8

Maybe this *might* help you

I've heard the slender "r" you describe, I think. An example that springs to mind is the r in the word "ar", at least as I've heard that pronounced on the Irish Now learning program.

And you are indeed correct about my difficulty being one of trying to puzzle out which vowell represents the sound and which represents the glide. There just does not seem to be a well-enunciated list of rules for figuring that out - or at least, I've yet to see one.

Also... I can't seem to open that document. It says "no access".

A Dhomhnaill,

Tá ceist agam ort - Cad 'na thaobh go you spell your surname in a such unusual way? Isn't it supposed to be "Ó hAireachtaigh"?

Deacracht leis an gclár plé, nach nglacann le ceannlitreacha seachas an céad cheann d'ainm úsáideora.

Pléadh an cheist le deanaí.

Tuigim, is trua san.

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgk36dcn_2hh5xm8

Tá sé ag obair anois

"Isn't it supposed to be "Ó hAireachtaigh"?"

I tried and tried, but the software won't allow a true Irish spelling - even the moderator couldn't help. Alas!

An dtuigeann tú Gaeilge?

Well, I know the difference between a "broim" and
a "tuthóg".

quote:

I know the difference between a "broim" and a "tuthóg"

Tá cluas ghéar agat, is dócha. Nó srón ghéar?

http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/281

Dónall,
the purpose of the link was to show what I suspect was a way of making the slender r, as some native speakers make it. When I looked at the slender r in a book and then took Peter's and Román's descriptions, the visual similarity seemed marked.

I could not find any Lituanian or Russian's to try this with, so some Polish had to stand in. They lisened to TG4 and RnG, and /r'/ seemed like a d to them.

The idea was to make a word with /r'/, like obair, put pronounce it like 'obaid' (slender d in the 'Munster fashion'), and then after seom of that, pull back the tongue to a more palatal stance (on the ridge, rather than after if for the d). The Polish were able to do it like the native people on the radio (to my ears, at least). Wiki shows they dont have slender r natutally in Polish, so it was an interesting demonstration.

Warning: I am not a linguist, so cannot garantee the effectivness of advice given. Possible side effects include been laughed at, been ignored, or even been attacked by Kevin Myers fans. To avoid this, only practice in an empty, well ventilated room.

A BRN,

Just curious, did you just go find some Polish people and do this experiment with them or did you ask Polish friends of yours to listen with you? :)

Kevin Meyers is indeed irritating from what I've seen of his writing.

Beir bua agus beannacht

No I was with a friend when we called into some house he used to live in, and there were some Poles there. They were looking at English books, but asked me about irish. Remembering Románs and Peter talking about slender d, and with a radio present, I'd thought I'd try an ad hoc experiement.

I had no pictures, just what I recalled. The thing was they had a recorder on the radio, so one could replay the phrases used. I found my own sound became more like the radio, so it might be useful, but I really doubt anyone will be follow it, as there is probably things I took for granted which led it it, that wont be in the instructions.

A Riona

What do you find irritating about Kevin Myers?

Aindreas sent me a page online filled with articles about or related to Irish from the papers. There were a couple of articles that Kevin had written and he seemed to despise the language movement in general from what I observed. He has the right to feel this way and voice it and I agree that he should definitely have that right. I found his views to be negative and his attitude was irritating to me and I didn't agree. Even so perhaps irritation should not be pinned on him unless I know more. Perhaps I'd change my mind on him if I met him in person.

Beir bua agus beannacht

He was born in Leicester of Irish parents and is often is described as a West Brit - a perjorative term for people born in Ireland who have a loyalty to Britain. Many of the landed gentry would have been so described in the past - typically born in Ireland, educated in England, often followed a miltary career in the British forces.

Kevin Myers has alternatively called himself an East Paddy - born in England but with a loyalty to Ireland.

He has just published a book covering his life as a student living in Belfast during the 1970s at the height of the troubles - a very good read to judge by the reviews.